Each Thursday my friend Kristen and I go to a local University and witness to students. A couple weeks ago as we walked into the campus cafeteria a young student was walking out. I couldn't help but notice how horribly low her shirt was. I quickly handed her a tract and said, "Did you get one?" She took it. Then, in a low horrified voice, I covered my mouth and said to her, "Uh Oh!" as I pointed several times at her chest area. She frantically looked down, as if she had no idea, and started buttoning everything up. Then she responded, "Thanks." I wonder how long she walked around the campus with her shirt like that -without anyone saying a word.Yesterday, when I got home from evangelism, this was in my inbox from, Kristen:
I went to a fast food restaurant today, one where you drive up and order your food, and then a carhop brings it to your car. As I was contemplating what to order, I noticed three guys looking at one of the female carhops that was on roller skates. As she rolled by me, I saw exactly why they were looking at her. Her shorts were the shortest shorts I have ever seen on a human being, and everything in the rear was showing. Immediately, I thought, “I have to do something! Like leave this place! I don’t even know this girl, how can I correct her attire? Surely, one of her co-workers will say something.” My panic attack lasted about thirty seconds, and then I knew that I had to be the one to say something to her. Clearly, none of her co-workers had, and they weren’t going to. So, I placed my order and waited for her to bring it out. But a different girl began walking toward me with my order. Lord, could this get any more awkward? Now You expect me to ask the carhop that brought my food to tell Shorty-Shorts to come over to my car? Needless to say, that’s exactly what I did and she came skating over. I couldn’t even look up as she was rolling toward me; I knew this was going to be painful for both of us. I had never said anything to anybody about their dressing immodestly, so I had no idea what I was going to say. “Yes ma’am?” she said.
“Hey, I just wanted to tell you that those guys were kind of gawking at you, and I think it’s because your shorts are so short. I’m sure you didn’t realize. Just thought you would want to know, because I know I don’t like it when guys gawk at me.”
“Oh, thank you. It’s because my shorts are too big, and they kept falling down, so I had to belt them up high.”
“Well, I just thought you would want to know, because I don’t like guys gawking at me either,” I said again for some reason.
“Well, thank you.” And she rolled away.
Now, I have no idea if she made any adjustments to her shorts or not because I left rather quickly, but at least I said something. Driving away I thought of all the things I should have said and done, but in my nervousness totally forgot about, such as handing her the gospel tract that I had in my lap at the ready. But I didn’t kick myself too badly because it was my first time confronting someone in this way, and I knew, that just like with evangelism, it would get a little easier each time. -Kristen
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If you're reading this and you can relate in any way to these two accounts but you've been nervous to say anything, just know you are not alone. There are now two of us doing this and if you start that will make 3! :-)
Join the "Uh-Oh" Club. And I'm not joking. I want to hear from you. Here's what you can do, the next time you see a lady that is dressed in an immodest fashion: Hand her a tract and say something to the effect of, "Here, this is for you." Or you can say, "Did you get one of these." And then point to the immodest area and with a horrified look, say "Uh -Oh". And better yet, perhaps you can talk to her. Either way, I'd like to hear what happens. Either send me an email (email [at] fishwithtrish.com) or post below.
Confronting someone in this way is not easy. But don't forget, that just like with evangelism, it will get easier each time.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Trish
"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever." Daniel 12:3 (italics mine)
"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise." Proverbs 11:30
46 comments:
Good idea! You can become some sort of Modesty Guard, or Modesty Patrol!
Thanks, perdita. Glad to see you still around here.
Trish, I’ve been reading when you update. I just usually don’t comment.
However, in your first example it appears that the woman was actually exposing more than she intended. If that was
the case, then letting her know she was unbuttoned was a good thing.
The second case is a little different. If it appeared that the woman didn’t realize how much she was exposing , then your friend was fine. But I don’t think that was the case. However, because your friend was a customer (I’m assuming that this wasn’t some sort of Hooters style restaurant) she would have right to contact the restaurant and explain that she didn’t feel the uniform, as worn by one of the staff, was appropriate for a family restaurant.
That would be fine, also.
But what you’re proposing … “and then point to the immodest area and with a horrified look, say "Uh -Oh"
- you’re not trying to save women from embarrassment due to unintentional exposure. You’re trying to shame women because you don’t like how they dress.
If you’ve never heard of the Modesty Guard, please look them up. It wasn’t a compliment.
Did you want another 90 comments or something, Trish?
You enjoy shaming women. We get it.
You've got to be kidding me?
This isn't the Victorian age. Would you stop living in the past and get into the 21st century?
And I have to second Perdita's comment. A modesty guard is no compliment but it does fit what you intend on others.
Just utter garbage. Trish, you are indeed under their thumbs aren't you?
What's next? "How to get your man a sammich?"
Gimme a break!!
W01F
This is a hard issue. Especially in Christian circles. My son was almost five when he nonchalantly told us that there were a couple of ladies in our church that wear shirts that are low in the front, and for some reason he sees their 'bubble tops.' He said he didn't know why his eyes wanted to look at them, but he sometimes would count how many times the 'bubbles' bounced when they walked. We taught our son about not looking and everything, and I have to say I was shocked that he was so young and was noticing. I was more shocked at the response of the ladies he pointed out to me at church the next week. I sweetly talked to two of them privately,and separately after church, and simply told them what my son had said, not judgmental or rude or harsh. I told them if it was me I would want to know. They accused my son of being a perverted little creep, slung slander at our family around the church, and said they would continue to wear exactly what they chose to wear and it was none of our business because we are under grace. Now their daughters wear the same trashy stuff. We try to be a blessing to them, but there is still 'something in the air' between us, that we have tried to resolve. It takes both parties to resolve hard feelings, and we have said nothing of any of it to anyone else, but it kinda makes a mommy gun shy on this issue.
perdita, are you a lady?
Azou, are you a lady?
noah buddy, are you a lady?
This is for "ladies only".
Please answer the question. Thanks.
Yes, I have the gloves and the pill-box hat.
At least Rebekah's issue is with other believers. But this is not the type of situation you’re talking about.
You are no longer content with policing yourself or your family or your sister believers – you want to go out and target women whose dress you don’t care for and try to shame them. That you don’t find this behavior reprehensible is astounding.
Oh snap, we came armed with ladies.
perdita vs. Trish
ding ding
I don't understand the point of this type of correction if it's with people who don't even profess Christianity. Seems like a side issue if they aren't saved. If they dress modestly but still go to hell, what good have I done?
Modesty is a heart issue, it will automatically follow repentance at some point in a believer's life.
As believers, we need to have compassion on the lost and let that compassion drive us to share the gospel with them. Focusing instead on modesty is getting side-tracked.
This is by no means encouraging modesty, it is ruthlessly shaming women who do not hold to your standard of fashion.
Not to mention your dishonest method of doing so. Is it okay to be dishonest for Jesus?
From Brother Minchin:
I believe that women have the right
To walk the streets at night
And not be afraid for their lives
I believe that a woman has the right
To choose what happens to her body
Without suffering the judgement
Of the conservative right
And I believe that women have the right
to wear the clothes they like
Without being treated like dirt
**search for "Confessions" from Tim Minchin on Youtube**
BTW, Trish - yes I am a lady, and comfortable and confident on my own without being forced into an outmoded 'modesty' conformity.
It’s because my shorts are too big, and they kept falling down, so I had to belt them up high.
Hm. Young women have certainly changed since my day. If I had had that problem some mumblemumble years ago, my solution would have involved 1) a safety pin, 2) gentle and unhurried movements, and 3) hoping for the best.
Come to think of it, that's still my solution to a wide variety of personal problems....
I fully support this blog and everything Trish said in it.
We as Christians have gotten too relaxed with this culture. We are so afraid to hurt someone's feelings rather than tell someone that what they are wearing is causing them to be viewed as an object not a person, let alone that our fellow Christian brothers are being subject to this stumbling block.
Trish wasnt saying just point at people and laugh, she was saying to give the gospel and in the midst of the conversation or transferel of the tract, to point out the immodesty issue.
Yes, the heart will be changed in a lot of areas once a person repents and understands the gospel. However I see nothing wrong with letting a fellow female know that they are being viewed as "eye candy" and not a lady as rude. I would think any true lady would want to know that information, not be offended by it.
If you've read Trish's blog long enough, you can obviously see she has a heart for the lost and isnt being mean spirited when she is talking to these girls about thier dress.
Good job sister, keep pressing on. I admire your stance!
Trish, have you seen Dannah Gresh's Modesty Tests here?:
http://www.purefreedom.org/media.htm
As for shaming the girl in short shorts, it is not shaming her, but loving her to be concerned for her dress. Lust is a sin. Inciting to lust is a sin. Thank you for your courage to say something!
Trish, have you seen this at Dannah Gresh's site?
http://www.purefreedom.org/media.htm
Oh look at Trish getting all childish,
"No boys allowed!! No boys allowed!!"
Sorry Trish, but I will have to disregard that request. You see, your fellow preachers in their sexism kept reffering to me as "female", so you are kinda forced to keep me here. To do so would make their accusation (as childish as it was) void.
And we don't want to upset the boys now do we? After all you want to submit to their will, right?
Furthermore, modesty concerns both genders, but since you seem intent on acting like the fashion police, I will have to put you back in your place, evangelist.
Just because they shamed you on the basis of gender, doesn't mean the rest of the Human population will put up with it. We are sorry that they did this to you.
W01F
@Fisherwoman,
Those links are only useful if you plan to cosplay at a Steampunk LARP session.
Other than that, it's just the same oppression of the female gender masquarading itself as "modesty" and "virtue".
Nothing new there.
W01F
We as Christians have gotten too relaxed with this culture.
It’s not just your culture. I’m sorry to tell you this, but you share this place with many people who don’t feel that same as you. You even share this place with Christians that don't feel the same as you.
We are so afraid to hurt someone's feelings rather than tell someone that what they are wearing is causing them to be viewed as an object not a person, let alone that our fellow Christian brothers are being subject to this stumbling block.
Not everyone in this country has the same hang-ups as you and your fellow Christian brothers. It sounds like your fellow Christian brothers need to grow up a bit and take responsibility for their own issues and not try to pass it on to ‘stumbling blocks’.
Trish wasnt saying just point at people and laugh,
And then point to the immodest area and with a horrified look, say "Uh -Oh"
Ah, yes, it’s okay to try to humiliate people as long as you don’t actually laugh.
she was saying to give the gospel and in the midst of the conversation or transferel of the tract, to point out the immodesty issue.
Again, if you think a person is unaware that they are exposing themselves, politely let them know - but why would you need a horrified look and an “Uh-Oh” to do that?
Again, if a business has uniforms you feel are too risque, take it up with management.
Yes, the heart will be changed in a lot of areas once a person repents and understands the gospel. However I see nothing wrong with letting a fellow female know that they are being viewed as "eye candy" and not a lady as rude. I would think any true lady would want to know that information, not be offended by it.
You know, I don’t actually get the idea that you really care about the other person. I get the idea you like being sanctimonious and will grasp at anything that will allow you tell another person - a complete stranger - that you think you are better than they are.
If that is indeed your message, then go right ahead, point and look horrified. If that isn't your message, then maybe you should come up with something other than point and shame.
Trish is absolutely right. We do women a favor when we show them how they are being viewed or show Christian sisters how they are dishonoring God and giving opportunity to sin to men (Christian and non-Christian).
I still have trouble with knowing the best way to do this (and having the boldness), but doing it while sharing the gospel, in a loving way (as Trish ALWAYS does), seems right.
There’s little doubt that the women who choose to dress in that manner, do so consciously. Ginger made a good point; if you want to address the propriety of a woman’s fashion choice then do so amongst your own.
Lori, Trish’s tactic looks very much like a point and laugh scenario (or point and shame, rather). If that is the first thing a woman is regarded with, shame will be the only association she will have with Christianity. So either she does conform to your beliefs eventually but is unnecessarily burdened with grief, guilt and shame; or she will rightly not want to have anything to do with your God and believers.
Another thing to consider is that a man can perfectly well feel lust regardless of a woman’s attire (or lack thereof). If you think wearing a skirt is going to keep a man from lusting after you then you are incredibly naïve. By insisting that women are the primary cause for this, you exonerate men from their responsibility to demonstrate self-control and treat women with respect.
So then, please tell me why does it only go for women and not for men?
Lust is a sin. Inciting to lust is a sin.
How about just being a respectful and mature adult without resorting to blaming others for rude and misogynistic behavior?
Way to keep reenforcing stupid stereotypes and repressing self-esteem.
I am a woman. I've had men harass me, grope me and gawk at me while I was wearing overcoat and pants. I've been treated this way while I've been walking down the street in broad daylight and riding the subway.
My victimization has nothing to do with what I'm wearing or what I was doing and everything to do with my attackers thinking they could take advantage of me.
Shaming a woman for the way she's dressed it just another way of valuing (or really de-valuing) a person for only what's on the outside
What a challenge Trish! I often notice women dressed inappropriately, but shrug it off. I'm totally convicted.
I'm curious how you think this is encouraging anyone to come to God, because it seems to me it would drive people away from the church knowing that if they come into your church judged *wrong*, they won't be treated with kindness and compassion but "Uh-oh!" shaming.
It's not your place to judge other women's clothing, and I genuinely believe what you do is a) dishonoring to God and b) being a stumbling block. Do you really, in your heart, feel this is the right thing to do? That it brings people closer to Christ to be subjected to be treated so rudely?
Why not confront the men who were gawking at the women? They were the ones doing something offensive. You do realize that since, as a carhop, she's entirely dependent on tips, wearing short-shorts may be what guarantees she has enough money to pay her rent and take care of her family? You could have been decent to her, instead you shamed her. Nice job. Christians are just so darn caring, aren't they? Can't imagine why you have such a difficult time converting everyone to your worldview.
"Why not confront the men who were gawking at the women? "
I'm working on a new tract that will address this. Thanks for the confirmation that I should do this.
Ginger,
Thanks for commenting.
"Seems like a side issue if they aren't saved."
Your right, it is a side issue. I'm glad you recognize it as an "issue". Abortion is a side issue - but it is an issue.
Did you notice that I encouraged ladies to hand them a "tract" (these contain a gospel message) and better yet, to "talk" to them. While talking to them, bring them through the law and give them the good news of the gospel. You'd be surprised how many ladies I have talked to that had cleavage exposed and began to cover up as I talked to them about the Lord. I didn't even mention their dress.
My aim is to encouraging Christian ladies to pass out tracts and evangelize one - 2 - one and also to say something about inappropriate dress - even if it is a small "Uh-Oh" as you hand them a tract.
Our priority is always the Gospel.
Listen to what John MacArthur has to say about Matt 5:13 (salt and light)
"Salt stings. Not only is it white and adds flavor, it has a medicinal or healing property when put into a wound. So some say that the Lord is saying, "Believers are not to be honey to soothe the sinful world, you are to be salt in the world, so whenever you see a place where there is a problem, you should just throw yourselves in and make it sting." I like that. I don't think we do near enough of that. I think we just want to drip honey on everyone, and we figure that if we never offend, if we just go along in life, it will be alright. If we gloss it over and let it be the way it is, nobody will get upset and everyone will say, "Oh, those Christians are so loving and tolerant of us." But there is never a clear definition of a distinction, you see. We're not honey, we're salt. "
Some food for thought: We expect all people to live by Christian standards everyday: Society expects people not to lie, not to steal, not to murder, etc..
Those are not uniquely Christian standards, Trish. People had such basic standards long before "Christian" was even a word.
“Ladies only”? One moment...
... apropos of nothing, did you know that by converting the raw temporal energy continually emitted by an unstable timecube into randomised biological energy (by means of transmitting it through a room filled with probiotic yoghurt, obviously), and then blasting it at a human being modulated to the same frequency as a psychic template, you can induce semi-safe repeatable human transformations? It’s quite painful, but – AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!
Okay, now I can comment.
Trish, there’s a difference between being concerned that someone might be showing more than they intend, and pretending to be concerned simply because their attire makes you uncomfortable for whatever reason, whether it be religious or simply because you’re a prude. The former is genuine empathy, the latter is self-serving dishonesty . As a prude myself, I confess: sometimes I do get uncomfortable around people who choose to display more skin than I would be comfortable with. But that’s my problem to deal with, not theirs, and it’s a result of actual, verifiable misplaced empathy (ie. I worry about how I would feel dressed the way they are, not how they feel dressed the way they are), not a spiritual god-given conscious, which is where I suspect you’ll credit it.
Okay, I’m done. Now all I need to do to change back is find that other psychic template and...
... Oh. Oh crud.
"Seems like a side issue if they aren't saved."
Your right, it is a side issue. I'm glad you recognize it as an "issue". Abortion is a side issue - but it is an issue.
Did you notice that I encouraged ladies to hand them a "tract" (these contain a gospel message) and better yet, to "talk" to them. While talking to them, bring them through the law and give them the good news of the gospel. You'd be surprised how many ladies I have talked to that had cleavage exposed and began to cover up as I talked to them about the Lord. I didn't even mention their dress.
Nothing new here. LWP (Living Waters Publications) trains evangelists to use propaganda techniques. They are quite fond of using rail-roaded conversations. Just right now, Trish is attempting to side-track you and move the conversation into grounds where she thinks she's got the upper hand.
In this case, it's the GPT (Good Person Test). Which is a sales-pitch technique that was modified for use in evangelism. Of course, once you know how the sales-pitch works and you're aware of it's major flaw, it won't work.
My aim is to encouraging Christian ladies to pass out tracts and evangelize one - 2 - one and also to say something about inappropriate dress - even if it is a small "Uh-Oh" as you hand them a tract.
Our priority is always the Gospel.
So you are indeed veering away from the whole creationism schtick. I guess getting beaten oh-so-many-times have made sales go down, and so, you're trying to woo the pro-lifers, homeschoolers and other Amish wannabes and throw-backs to pre-industrial times.
Like that's going to work. You're only going to harm yourselves in the process.
Some food for thought: We expect all people to live by Christian standards everyday: Society expects people not to lie, not to steal, not to murder, etc..
Food for thought? More like "Junk-food for thought". I guess socio-anthropology is not your strong-suit.
W01F
Azou, yes, but not before God was (well, the original word for Him).
“But there is never a clear definition of a distinction, you see.”
Well, glad to see that you understand your practice of shaming isn’t about concern for the woman you evangelize to and is about showing off your own ‘Godliness’.
“I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.”
You know, it's funny.
I was in Saudi Arabia, and there was a group of old Muslim men, all dressed in black in the most awe-inspiring heat, who were apparently imams or something, walking around the city with canes. (I never was clear about their official status, but there they were.)
And five times a day, at prayer time, they used those canes pretty unmercifully on anybody who didn't get down on their knees and pray. (We Americans learned to stay in stores at those times.)
And I heard that they also enforced other Muslim rules, such as "modesty laws."
Women from our group weren't allowed to walk around without at least one man, just in case, and we all looked American, so we didn't have an issue with it. But we were told that hispanic women would be well-served to keep their passport ready to flash at all times.
It's funny how this "uh-oh" patrol reminded me of that...
But hey, I suppose it's between you and God if you want to take after the Muslim extremists.
That is great you are working on a new tract to address this issue! Can't wait to get some. That is definitely the secondary issue in this topic-glad its being addressed as well. God is certainly using your gifts in this area.
Leave it to MacArthur to say it so eloquently. Very good points.
As a fellow Christian, I don't feel that shaming people is the way to go. I DEFINITELY do not feel that shaming people in an instance where they cannot defend themselves for fear of losing their jobs is acceptable. I worked in fast food when I was a teenager, and had to take everything from people giving me tracts that I then felt guilty about throwing away (what else was I to do with an inefficient method of witnessing?) to the much more offensive instance where someone told me that he liked our McDonald's because it wasn't ran by a bunch of racial-epithets-for-black-people.
I don't always dress modestly. I wear skirts above my knees. I wear tanktops that show my bra straps. I'm sorry. If it's something I wouldn't want to wear in front of my grandfather, I won't wear it, but it might not meet your standards of modesty.
My body is not yours. And this is not an anti-abortion rant, in which case your body is obviously being shared by another human being. My body is mine, the way I adorn it is mine, and any issues with it is between me and my Creator. "Why do you see the speck in your brother's eye but fail to notice the beam in your own eye?" Matthew 7:3. No one has a right to judge but the father, and that's what you're doing to these ladies, my friend.
I wonder if Rebecca Watson was dressed immodestly when the guy asked her to coffee at 4am in that elevator? *wink wink*
Trish, I cant imagine you doing this in anything but the sweetest way, and I personally wouldn't be offended.
Funny its okay to offend someone with one type of anti-"rhetoric" (to put it in the opposing vernacular) over another. You live on this planet, you have a right in this way to express what you think to others, just like we have the right (and mandate) to witness to others.
Oh and one more thing... I disagree with John MacArthur here... "salt and light": "salt" is supposed to make people thirsty for the Living Water, not put in a wound to sting. Not really sure how Johnny Mac justifies his "sting" statement scripturally.
Okay, you're putting your opinion out there and asking for comments, so I'm not giving unsolicited advice.
But ... did no one EVER teach you anything about ego boundaries? It's not your job, or mine, to go around giving unsolicited advice. Even to fellow Christian sisters. Fellow Christian sisters gave me advice attempting to break up my marriage to a man who'd sinned against me in a pretty serious way, and of whom they disapproved. I'm still happily married, having forgiven the sin (which has not been repeated), and they no longer enjoy my friendship. If anyone ever offers me unsolicited advice, particularly after being warned not to, it changes our relationship. It shows she doesn't respect my personhood.
You, my dear, don't respect the personhood, the boundaries, of anyone to whom you give those tracts. Rethink it, 'k?
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