No doubt our Facebook pages can be a witnessing tool for the Gospel and with the advancement of modern technology and all the various social media venues, we don’t even have to leave the house to be a witness for the Lord. In fact Facebook, in particular, is a great way to reach many people at once by quoting bible verses that tell of the Lord's wondrous deeds and that call people to turn from their sins and trust in the Savior, Jesus Christ. Don't get me wrong, I realize that there are many other reasons why we have Facebook pages (networking, business reasons, etc) and I'm sure there various things that we post about our daily lives, but in the midst of it all, honoring the Lord and proclaiming the gospel should be in the forefront for the follower of Christ.To make this more clear, when you accept a friend on Facebook, typically the very first thing they do is view your pictures. In fact, sometimes that's all they may do. They quickly skim through them to see how you look and what you’ve been up to for the past decade or two and then off they go, onto the next person’s page. It reminds me of the ol' adage, "a picture is worth a thousand words." This saying refers to the idea that a picture communicates something. Sometimes it communicates too much. So with that in mind, when was the last time you went through your Facebook pictures and asked yourself, "Is this modest?" or "What am I communicating to my 'friends'?" and “Would I want my brothers and sisters in Christ looking at theses pictures?”
Ladies, this is especially for us. If you are a professing Christian and if you haven't done this already, here’s something practical that you can do: Go through every picture on your Facebook (This may take time depending upon how many pictures you have, but it will be worth it since on Judgment Day you will give an account to the Lord for all of these things) and if you are dressed in an immodest manner, hit 'Delete!'
If you need help with deciphering what is modest and what is immodest, ask a modest sister in your local church for help, or a godly older women who can give you wise counsel, or ask your husband (assuming that he has biblical standards for modesty). And if all else fails and you have no one else to go to, well then, there's always me and I'll be quick to toot my modesty horn.
For starters, here's a few specific areas that might help you out, let's begin with cleavage. Ladies, if you are showing cleavage, hit 'Delete' as fast as you can! I don't care how "cute" you look or if someone else posts the pic of you or if it was way back in your BC (before Christ) days. This is not acceptable in any circumstances for a woman who professes to follow Christ. Simply delete the picture or 'Un-tag' yourself.
If you have photos of you or your friends in bikinis, hit 'Delete' as quickly as you can and don't look back. Or if your mid (midriff) section is showing hit 'Delete' please. And short shorts are a no no, so you know what to do with that, 'Delete, delete, delete'. And then check your heart and ask yourself, "What is it within me that desires to present myself in this manner?” and “What does this speak of the condition of my heart?”
"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel..." 1 Timothy 2.9a
101 comments:
Well, that was repressive.
It is interesting that there is an increasing movement in Christian circles to point out to women the need for modesty. I hear it on a radio talk show called "Crosstalk" from VCY America once in a while. I thought maybe it was Fundamentalists being tense. But I heard it from Matt Slick of CARM and other people here and there.
A friend and I wrote articles at almost the same time on this, and linked to each other. If you don't mind, I'd like to offer my article on modesty for Christian women. A link to this excellent article has been added.
Naturally, we took some heat from atheist who presumed to tell us how to live and how to practice our beliefs, but that is no surprise.
Are you ashamed of your own body Trish? Sounds like you got problems with your own self-image.
A lot of women are not. And your facebook evangelism, can be best summed up as "Trolling".
And knowing the nature of your fellow AMBA members this could also mount up to harassment.
That's also a violation of Facebook policy.
I reffer to you the terms of use on Facebook (section 3);
# Safety
We do our best to keep Facebook safe, but we cannot guarantee it. We need your help to do that, which includes the following commitments:
1. You will not send or otherwise post unauthorized commercial communications (such as spam) on Facebook.
2. You will not collect users' content or information, or otherwise access Facebook, using automated means (such as harvesting bots, robots, spiders, or scrapers) without our permission.
3. You will not engage in unlawful multi-level marketing, such as a pyramid scheme, on Facebook.
4. You will not upload viruses or other malicious code.
5. You will not solicit login information or access an account belonging to someone else.
6. You will not bully, intimidate, or harass any user.
7. You will not post content that: is hateful, threatening, or pornographic; incites violence; or contains nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence.
8. You will not develop or operate a third-party application containing alcohol-related or other mature content (including advertisements) without appropriate age-based restrictions.
9. You will not offer any contest, giveaway, or sweepstakes ("promotion") on Facebook without our prior written consent. If we consent, you take full responsibility for the promotion, and will follow our Promotions Guidelines and all applicable laws.
10. You will not use Facebook to do anything unlawful, misleading, malicious, or discriminatory.
11. You will not do anything that could disable, overburden, or impair the proper working of Facebook, such as a denial of service attack.
12. You will not facilitate or encourage any violations of this Statement.
The bottom line? Don't even THINK about it. I means what's next? Preaching in World Of Warcraft?
W01F
Are you ashamed of your own body Trish? Sounds like you got problems with your own self-image.
A lot of women are not. And your facebook evangelism, can be best summed up as "Trolling".
And knowing the nature of your fellow AMBA members this could also mount up to harassment.
That's also a violation of Facebook policy.
I reffer to you the terms of use on Facebook (section 3);
# Safety
We do our best to keep Facebook safe, but we cannot guarantee it. We need your help to do that, which includes the following commitments:
1. You will not send or otherwise post unauthorized commercial communications (such as spam) on Facebook.
2. You will not collect users' content or information, or otherwise access Facebook, using automated means (such as harvesting bots, robots, spiders, or scrapers) without our permission.
3. You will not engage in unlawful multi-level marketing, such as a pyramid scheme, on Facebook.
4. You will not upload viruses or other malicious code.
5. You will not solicit login information or access an account belonging to someone else.
6. You will not bully, intimidate, or harass any user.
7. You will not post content that: is hateful, threatening, or pornographic; incites violence; or contains nudity or graphic or gratuitous violence.
8. You will not develop or operate a third-party application containing alcohol-related or other mature content (including advertisements) without appropriate age-based restrictions.
9. You will not offer any contest, giveaway, or sweepstakes ("promotion") on Facebook without our prior written consent. If we consent, you take full responsibility for the promotion, and will follow our Promotions Guidelines and all applicable laws.
10. You will not use Facebook to do anything unlawful, misleading, malicious, or discriminatory.
11. You will not do anything that could disable, overburden, or impair the proper working of Facebook, such as a denial of service attack.
12. You will not facilitate or encourage any violations of this Statement.
The bottom line? Don't even THINK about it. I means what's next? Preaching in World Of Warcraft?
W01F
Why not purchase special apparel designed especially for those women whose religious views encourages them to cover their bodies in the name of modesty.
I think they're called "Burqas" and they're available in any color you like so long as it's black.
They're definitely not a way for men to oppress women by implying the body that they believe was given to them by God is somehow shameful.
Azou,
Any moral choice that takes God into consideration before self has the potential to be considered repressive to those who hate God.
Amen Trish. Thank you for taking a bold and righteous stand. It seems that we can all too easily become desensitized to what is modest/chaste and not cause others to stumble, whether we're men or women. The "fashion of the day" has no interest or concern with modesty (and never has), which doesn't make it any easier.
Thanks for the admonishment. Very encouraging.
I just heard on the radio that the Word For Today has a book on this subject too called Reflecting God by Kay Smith
http://tiny.cc/rgc
No, Joy, it's putting the blame on women for daring to choose their wardrobe. In actuality, it's wholly the man's fault if he acts out of line. If he can't exert an ounce of self control, perhaps there's a deeper problem that requires professional.
This is just another way to control women and take some of the blame off a man's failings.
Or is it just another puny excuse for atheists to rail against God, and Christians for daring to follow our beliefs? Perhaps some people are angry about the possibility that decent women will not be quite so available to be leered at and lusted after by those who hate them.
It's possible.
Taken from the Huffington Post's article called "Has Atheism Become a Religion?" here's a few interesting comments:
"...It's worth noting the degree to which Atheists routinely, strategically, and often vociferously position what is often described as their "secular-humanist" views against religious traditions. Read or listen to any of the celebrity Atheists of the past decade like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Sam Harris and you realize that they fashion many of their arguments not against some alternative economic, political, or philosophical position but against organized religion. Religious faith is clearly their primary opponent in the contest for the intellectual allegiance of the population, which makes it hard not to conclude that they offer their views and beliefs as a viable alternative to traditional religious systems...and you probably knew this was coming -- consider all the comments made by self-identified Atheists on articles published in the Religion section of the Huffington Post. Seriously. Either Atheists have way more time on their hands than the rest of the population or they've got something to prove."
Gimme a break Trish, you know too well that "Atheism = Religion" has been debunked to death.
It's not going to work on us. Not anymore. The tricks and shenanigans that living waters suggests that evangelicals use will have no effect.
We will call it for what it is. Be it sexism, misogyny or even bigotry. You can call it "evangelism" but to us, it's motives are clear.
I am sorry that you have to live by these standards on which your gender gets the short end. Perhaps one day you will realize that by abiding to it, you didn't help your fellow Christian, you only hurt them by not allowing them to mature and see women as people and not by what they choose to wear.
But I doubt the thought will cross your mind. They have your mind locked up worse than Fort Knox.
I pity you.
W01F
Gimme a break Trish, you know too well that "Atheism = Religion" has been debunked to death.
It's not going to work on us. Not anymore. The tricks and shenanigans that living waters suggests that evangelicals use will have no effect.
We will call it for what it is. Be it sexism, misogyny or even bigotry. You can call it "evangelism" but to us, it's motives are clear.
I am sorry that you have to live by these standards on which your gender gets the short end. Perhaps one day you will realize that by abiding to it, you didn't help your fellow Christian, you only hurt them by not allowing them to mature and see women as people and not by what they choose to wear.
But I doubt the thought will cross your mind. They have your mind locked up worse than Fort Knox.
I pity you.
W01F
Lucky for me, Stormbringer, we're in the wicked end days. So there's no shortage of delicious flesh to gaze at. There's a good chance I'm being facetious with that statement.
Of course, my argument isn't "woman should dress in skimpy clothes," but "woman should how they like." If a woman wants to wear a sweater in the summer time, that's fine. As long as it's her decision and not something she was shamed into doing.
This has nothing to do with God. I'm railing against Trish and anyone else trying keep keep women under the thumb of society as a whole.
Oh, and nice attempt at a passive-aggressive insinuation that I hate modestly clothed women. Isn't it time you stepped up your game, Stormbringer? I'm getting drizzle and no thunder from you.
Trish, how is your quotation related to this conversation in any way? I'll humor, but don't think you can change the subject.
I don't think it's a secret that atheism is an alternative to religious thinking. This does not make atheism a religion. That's like saying a bike is a car because I offer it as an alternative method of transportation.
We take time to talk and discuss religion (and lack thereof) because we would like to at least get people to take into consideration that atheists exist. You are just quoting another sad attempt to shame us into silence. Oh dear, I wouldn't want an ignorant person thinking I'm a religion now! I better stop posting!
Nice try. Now let's get back to your shaming of women.
"This has nothing to do with God. I'm railing against Trish and anyone else trying keep keep women under the thumb of society as a whole."
In other words, any excuse to hate people who practice their faith. That "under the thumb" line is hilarious, even after it's been done to death for decades.
"Nice try. Now let's get back to your shaming of women."
Nice lie. Now I'll let you get back to your bullying of Christian women.
I can understand the idea that women shouldn't be showing all their goods to everyone all the time, but there has got to be some sort of balance in it all.
You take one extreme and go straight to the other extreme. Both, being distastefully revealing and being excessively conservative, produce a damaging amount of self-consciousness (which often feeds into narcissism).
Next you will be saying we all need to wear baggy sweats and over-sized t-shirts so no man can see our shape at all (or a burqa, as someone else suggested). Maybe we shouldn't wear makeup; that could make us look too sexy.
I can testify to the constant awkwardness this produces, when people become so incredibly focused on trying not to appear too attractive/trying not to look attracted. It's okay to find other men and women attractive! That, in and of itself, does not lead to lust or adultery. Do you find other women to be beautiful? That doesn’t make you a lesbian. You need to demystify this concept, and not be so hung up on it. Dress conservatively, but don't tell women to go deleting every picture that they may have accidentally revealed some slight cleavage.
Trish, thank you for taking the time to write about this. I just spent some time going through my facebook pictures to make sure that there is nothing there that should distract the viewers from seeing my love for my Lord. My love and appreciation for what Jesus did on the cross should be evident in every part of my life and if I am helping others to sin by the way I am dressed, I show disregard for His sacrifice. Keep up with the good work.
Oh Drizzlebringer, let's keep that persecution complex of yours in check for just a little, okay?
This is a blog where each post is approved by Trish. It's hardly bullying if I'm playing by her rules. The definition of "bully" is to be overbearing or intimidating. I'm criticizing Trish's post. If criticism is bullying, then everyone here is a bully.
Saying I'm hating on anyone is equally ridiculous, especially since we all know how often you resort to insults and ridicule when you've got nothing to say. You know, such as right now.
Man! Sometimes we guys can be such butt-in-skis. Sheeeesh!
Excellent article! We were just talking about this yesterday or the day before in the Wretched Radio chat room. I was recounting an experience with an 18-yr-old girl at church here in Sweden. The kid always looked cute, but one day, in she comes with her cleavage showing. Her mother was with her. Her father was with her. Her two older brothers--one a deacon--were with her. See anything wrong with this picture? I took her aside and had a talk with her about modesty, but the little thing just looked confused.
What a sad commentary on the church today!
Buddy, if you'd done your homework, you'd have refrained by saying that Atheism = religion has been "debunked to death," not only because your phraseology is illogical but because Secular Humanism, which is Atheism by another name, was classified as a religion by the US Supreme Court in 1961. Not that it wasn't declared a religion by its proponents long before that, because it was.
You continue to spam by posting your comments twice, and to offer opinion as though fact, while trying to make us believe that Fish with Trish has done the same. Buddy, this is hypocrisy.
One day, God may bless you with a daughter of your own. Should she try to walk out of the house dressed as though she were looking for cheap customers, please be man enough to have The Talk with her--and let her know that she's signalling she's nothing more than a sex object for every man who sees her. Teach her to be a lady and that part of being a lady is dressing like a lady, not like a street walker.
It's hard to think that atheists are seriously concerned with the rights of anyone after they ripped Ray Comfort regarding his mother's death. That's really low. Then I see some serious projection going on when someone whines about 'insults & ridicule' by doing what he whines about.
If a bikini picture means that you arent a Christian then so be it. Im not into the legalistic religion anyways. I wear conservative clothing, no mid drift, nothing to tight, no cleavage, all my shorts have a three inch inseam... but I draw the line at bathing suits. I wear a bikini that covers all the important parts (no strings here for me and my bottoms are shorts). If I cant post my vacation pics because I am in a bikini then thats obsurd.
Actually me being in a bikini is a great tool to share the Lord because of my tattoos. I have Yeshua Rophe tattood on my side (means the Lord who heals). I also have a dove on my back, representing the Holy Spirit. Oh but tattoos arent probably facebook safe either according to you?
People know my beliefs by what I do and say, not by what I wear. Its like that group of people that think women who were raped and they were wearing revealing clothing, it was part their fault.
Its just so tiring reading about good hearted christian women who try and make choices for people and infer that if you post a bikini on facebook that you are not being a good witness.
Said, if you did your homework, you'd realize the secular humanism comment was a commentary by a justice with no legal ramifications. Secular humanism is not a recognized religion in the United Stated. Secular humanism is also not atheism, so you're just wrong all over the place.
Thanks for writing this article. It's a shame that so many choose to attack you for encouraging others to dress modestly.
Just a few thoughts....
Why some feel compelled to encourage women to dress immodestly explains a lot about their hearts.
I've never understood how some women will freely admit they dress a certain way so they can attract sexual attention from men, then they turn around and dress their daughters the same way.
Several here have talked as if dressing modestly is oppressing women. I would say getting women to constantly dress, not for comfort or practicality, but to attract men, is more oppressive.
Finally, it is not about being ashamed of your body, it is about self-respect and realising there is something of great worth to keep something sacred between a husband and wife.
Okay, rant over. :)
Again, thanks for the article.
Who is encouraging women to dress immodestly? I'm encouraging women to dress the way they want.
The little "Dot" whined
You continue to spam by posting your comments twice, and to offer opinion as though fact, while trying to make us believe that Fish with Trish has done the same. Buddy, this is hypocrisy.
Obviously you're quite dim. I don't control how it is posted. Fishy Trish is the one who double-posted my words
Reason: All posts must be approved by the blogger. Since she is in control of my posts, SHE is the one who double-posted, not I. If there is anything to blame, it is either the incompetence on the part of Living Waters Publications staff or the blogger platform or both.
One day, God may bless you with a daughter of your own. Should she try to walk out of the house dressed as though she were looking for cheap customers, please be man enough to have The Talk with her--and let her know that she's signalling she's nothing more than a sex object for every man who sees her. Teach her to be a lady and that part of being a lady is dressing like a lady, not like a street walker.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. "Please be a man"? How patriachal and sexist of you. Furthermore, You are betraying your own depravity with your "Atheist lolita" scenario. Perhaps members of the congregation you are in should keep a closer watch on you when their own daughters are around?
Or perhaps teaching them how to castrate a sheep with two bricks would be a good start in keeping you in line?
W01F
Wow, the more the intelligent people make good points, the more the atheists whine, divert, set up straw man arguments, attack and deliberately miss the point. In other words, being typical.
The best witness that you can be for us non Christians is to get involved with helping others:feed the poor, cloth the naked etc. Most of us could care less what you are wearing. If you have a bikini on while you are at the beach or pool, you will only seem like a normal human being. Believe it or not, most of us are far more mature than you are giving us credit for being.
Thank you for this post and all your posts Trish. They are very encouraging!
I like how Stormbringer makes empty assertions and brings nothing to the conversation.
Out of ammo already, buddy?
Anyways, another danger of Trish's line of thinking is the very common and tragic occurance where women are blamed when they become targets are sexual violence. The "asking for it" mentality gives predators wiggle room to get off the hook, and in many cases will cause a woman to NOT report a crime for fear of being named and shamed by the community.
Like cockroaches, rapists and thugs come out when the light ain't projected on them. Please, Trish, consider the very real consequences your finger-wagging can have on women.
Katyln's comment just reminded me of a conversation that my sister and I had in front of her boyfriend...She asked me "Do you think wearing a two piece swimsuit to the beach can make men lust after you?" But before I could even answered her boyfriend walked in the room and said "are you kidding me, some men go to the beach just for that, It's a goldmine for the younger non believing men!"
So Katlyn if you really think that men will be paying more attention to your tattoos and what they mean then your body, I'm sorry to tell you this but your wrong!
PS. There are plenty of cute modest bathing suits out there that you can swim comfortably in, I'd say if your concerned more about what you wear than about possibly stumbling a brother, or causing a non believer to take a second look then your priorities are not where they should be... BTW good article Trish, I'm glad to see your tackling the very thing that many Christian women seem to dismiss.
Trish, you are right on. I'm sorry to see so many people being rude to you about your stance.
Modesty is a beautiful thing. The mystery of it is a beautiful thing. Why would I want to show off every part of me to a world in which people rip each other apart.
And, if that didn't bother me, why would I ever want to take a chance on making one of my brothers-in-Christ stumble. Some men work very hard to keep their eyes only for their wives and to not dishonor the women around them with lustful thoughts. Shouldn't we support them as much as possible. They want to honor us, not oppress us. This is also a beautiful thing.
Thanks Trish,
Dan Phillips over at Team Pyromaniacs blog has a post along these lines entitled "Sister...show mercy", which he has reposted annually for the third time last Sept..
Point of reference: Trish allows comments here! I doubt she approves of hardly any of our irrational septic friends comments, yet she allows them just the same, when they fall within the guidelines.
Thank you for posting this, Trish. It is both timely and very encouraging.
Coram Deo, Contra Mundum,
Deb
Thank you, Trish, for talking about this topic. Many Christian women these days take offense when this topic comes up. They complain about oppression or legalism. If they were able to walk in a man's shoes for just one day maybe they would understand the great temptation that comes from the way they dress.
Thank you Trish. Wise advice. Those of us who are not in denial know the deal. Katlyn, it's not about legalism, but about the nature of men. If you do not want to consider this advice, then ignore it. It does not change the status of your salvation and Trish did not say that. There are just certain things that are unwise if you are a believer. This is an in-house admonition for the purpose of helping our brothers in Christ maintain purity in their thought lives and for yielding our bodies for the glory of Christ in an unregenerate world. If your husband is honest with you, he will tell you what a man's thought life is like. It took me years to understand this issue. If you think men are routinely looking past your body to find the deeper meaning in your tattoos, then you are being naive.
God bless you Trish!
@johannasmom
Modesty is a beautiful thing. The mystery of it is a beautiful thing. Why would I want to show off every part of me to a world in which people rip each other apart.
"Modesty" is a tool of oppression used by men to put down women. Think about it, when was the last time you heard about Christian men being told to dress modestly in order not to tempt women? You will never hear it.
It's always the women who have to do the legwork doesn't it? Shave this, don't expose that, make sure you smell nice.
There isn't a shred of equality in that, and that's why it's offensive.
@bassicallymike
Point of reference: Trish allows comments here! I doubt she approves of hardly any of our irrational skeptic friends comments, yet she allows them just the same, when they fall within the guidelines.
That is only temporary. Wait for it. As someone who is considered persona non grata by LWP, who experienced their brand of censorship, I can assure you that many of us Atheists had posts deleted by LWP staff even when it fell in the "guidelines". If it exposes too much or makes it so that LWP looks bad, it will be deleted.
Luckily, we keep records of this in our own forum at WEARESMRT.
@slave of righteousness
Thank you, Trish, for talking about this topic. Many Christian women these days take offense when this topic comes up. They complain about oppression or legalism. If they were able to walk in a man's shoes for just one day maybe they would understand the great temptation that comes from the way they dress.
As a man, I can assure you that it doesn't matter what the woman wears, it's all about the maturity level. By your own admission, you seem very immature. You tell us that you'd get bent out of shape all over the feminine form? What are you? A teenager, or an adult?
Where is this so-called restraint that I hear from you evangelicals? I guess it isn't worth a hill of beans. Next time you see a woman showing some leg or not, try looking at her as a Human being who is your equal and not some baby-factory.
@Kaytlyn
Love the fact that you can be both Christian and actually intelligent. You'd be welcome at WEARESMRT any day of the week.
Thanks for your post Trish. I find it amazing how so many become angered by your post. Their conscience is eating at them which is a sign they still have the Holy Spirit speaking to them. Only a conscience being worked on can bring wrath that your post seem to provoke.
Trish, great post and much needed. I wanted to share a link with you on modesty from a man's point of view, a video I watched recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVMZoZoKT-o
It never ceases to amaze me how offensive people get over the issue of modesty. The Word of God is clear that we are to be modest in our dress and that includes men too. The issue of men's modesty is rarely spoken of but truth is that 25% of women are just as visual as men and a man can be immodest in his dress just as a woman can be in hers. Our clothing should be a representation of the Gospel - ladies, we need to protect our brothers in Christ and not cause them to stumble by how we dress.
I would encourage those who read this article to give some serious thought to how we dress. Hey, if you are offended then maybe that's a clear sign you are dressing inappropriately and know it.
Blessings ~
@ Nelson
Thanks for your post Trish. I find it amazing how so many become angered by your post. Their conscience is eating at them which is a sign they still have the Holy Spirit speaking to them. Only a conscience being worked on can bring wrath that your post seem to provoke.
You promote inequality between the genders and then you wonder why people are demonstrating their disgust at such antiquated mindsets?
And that canned response of yours shows that you have no thoughts of your own. From which of Ray's books did you get that one? The one titled "More advice that I pulled out of where the sun don't shine"?
Her post only shows that she was brainwashed into being a second class citizen by Living Waters Publications and the church she goes at. That is what is outraging us, not your pre-conceived notions, but more your actions.
W01F
It no longer impresses me that you evangelicals seek to control how others look. It's all about the trappings of conformity. get them to dress alike, get them to think alike and of course, as I mentioned in earlier posts, the patriachal nature of the faith you adhere to, makes it rather discriminatory against women and also cheapens men by denying them the opportunity to mature as an adult.
The inability for a man to show self-control is nothing short but adolescent immaturity.
Outer appearances are trivial, it's all about emotional maturity. Regardless of whether or not a Human being is "visual", we are sentient beings, who can actually reason past our instincts.
You know for people who oppose "evolution", you sure are quick to bring forward the idea that we are nothing but beasts when it's convinient!! "Don't make our brothers stumble by showing that we are actually women". What is this? A joke? Gimme a break, if you want to dress in a way that is comfortable, then by all means do so, but don't do it because you're afraid some lecherous twit will gawk at you if you so much show that you're an adult woman.
If they are unable to control themselves, then the issue is with THEM. Not you.
I would encourage those who read this article to give some serious thought to how your mindset really betrays the immaturity of the evangelical ideology. Hey, if you are offended then maybe that's a clear sign you are in need of growing up and know it.
W01F
Trish, why don't you start a magazine called Burka Babes?
"It no longer impresses me that you evangelicals seek to control how others look."
This is a common thread of the anti-Christians posting here. They create a straw man caricature of what Christians believe so they can hate us even more. Guess what? Not Trish, not me, not any other Christian has to defend an image that does not exist, nor a position that we do not take. These atheists' attacks simply look childish, and are not impressing anyone.
By the way, I've been using the mascot from troll central ("SMRT", where the children play). Here is one where I use it as the lead picture for an article: http://stormbringer005.blogspot.com/2011/01/further-lessons-in-logic.html
Great advice Trish. I totally know where you are coming from and I agree.
I am your newest "follower" and I pray you'll return the favor and visit my blog.
Blessings!
Beth
Disagreement does not always = angry and/or offensive; FYI, to believers. It seems to be the first thing you guys cry out every time, it never fails. It's quite silly, really.
Women are not responsible for the maturity level of men. He has to grow up and learn self-control; dressing from your necks to your ankles is not going to change his thoughts.
Ever wonder why the stereotype for pastors’ kids is that they become extremely rebellious? You keep something so shrouded in mystery that people become hypersensitive to the things that are “forbidden”. You end up with teenagers who are excessively curious, and are going to go out and do all those things you thought you were protecting them from; and consequently, men (and women) who have difficulty maturing. That’s my two cents, anyway.
And W01F's last comment was put quite well, also.
I guess if you don't accept the fact that one day we will stand and give an account of every thought, word and deed to our Creator, then dressing modestly, does in fact seem foolish.
However, when we, in accord with our worldview, seek to follow our Creator and honor Him in how we live our lives, are derided as immature or lacking in self-control(when the real issue is total depravity, not the myth of evolution), don't be surprised when we bristle when everything but the basis for our beliefs are attacked. You are judging us on your belief system and not on our own. We believe we are called to a higher standard. You've offered strawmen, but no real substance to invalidate the principles of biblical teaching on this issue.
You love your sin and are proud of it.
"The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”Acts 17:30:31
"I guess if you don't accept the fact that one day we will stand and give an account of every thought, word and deed to our Creator, then dressing modestly, does in fact seem foolish."
Oh boy, must I repeat what has been said a thousand times over? Bring the evidence of your mythology to be real, and then we will take such things into consideration. And of course, we explained it that the so-called modesty is hypocritical and gives nothing in lieu in Human maturity. But I guess that flew right above your head.
And yes I am calling this immature, because it IS immature. I am making you bristle? Good. You need a good bristling, because such nonsense is not going on a "higher standard". It is mysogyny masquarading as a philosophy.
How can it be a higher standard if within the confines of a socio-religious group, the one gender is encouraged to be dominant and allowed to retain adolescent behaviour, while the other gender is stuck walking on eggshells and surpresses themselves under the guise of being "better"?
Why vilify women and hold them responsible to "Check themselves" while the men continously say "I am struggling with lust because of these women"? Yet I challenge any of these Christian men to see women as their equals, not because some dusty old tome said so, but because they have experienced women as thinking, living contributors to the Human race.
I find it rather pathetic. Taking on the world and casting out demons? No problem. You see one woman wearing a mini-skirt and it's kryptonite for the "ubermensch for Jesus"?
I would be laughing, if it wasn't so pathetic.
W01F
"And yes I am calling this immature, because it IS immature."
I am glad that you see these childish, illogical and capricious rants that atheists make for what they are.
22 “How long, O simple ones, will you love being simple?
How long will scoffers delight in their scoffing
and fools hate knowledge?
23 If you turn at my reproof,
behold, I will pour out my spirit to you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I have called and you refused to listen,
have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,
25 because you have ignored all my counsel
and would have none of my reproof,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when terror strikes you,
27 when terror strikes you like a storm
and your calamity comes like a whirlwind,
when distress and anguish come upon you.
28 Then they will call upon me, but I will not answer;
they will seek me diligently but will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
and did not choose the fear of the Lord,
30 would have none of my counsel
and despised all my reproof,
31 therefore they shall eat the fruit of their way,
and have their fill of their own devices.
Proverbs 1:22-31
Just seemed appropriate somehow. My hope for them is still repentance and faith.
Seems to me that Mike is basically right.
@ Stormbringer
You'd agree with anything a fellow Christian says, even it would be the stupidest thing ever, just as long it is opposing an unbeliever's viewpoint.
Why even consider anything you say, since it has been demonstrated that you just follow the crowd? Here's a hint: Sheep are always getting fleeced or led to the slaughter. It all depends of the whims of the market. So what are you? Meat for the grinder, or wool for the spinner?
@ bassicallymike
I will consider the fact that you have to quote an outdated manuscript as you being unable to argue further the point. I consider this a victory.
When you resort to clichees and quoting the bible, Those aren't your own words being spoken. To me, it means you're unable to defend yourself and seek to save face by hoping for some kindred support.
You didn't address the point I made at all and I knew you'd do that. You wish to withdraw? Sure, but you didn't defend anything except your inability to refute any point I made.
W01F
"You'd agree with anything a fellow Christian says, even it would be the stupidest thing ever, just as long it is opposing an unbeliever's viewpoint."
Hasty generalization. You see, I do not like to waste time sparring with people indulging in logical fallacies and firing off hateful rhetoric. More often than not, I see atheists doing the very same thing of which you accuse me. So excuse me.
Stormbringer (et al), do you think women should be held responsible for your maturity level? There have been times when women were paraded around [by men] as eye candy for men to look at, and now you demand that we cover up from head to toe because you lack the will to demonstrate restraint. Are you that weak, truly?
Nobody here is saying that women should go around flaunting everything around to intentionally capture your attention, only that we shouldn't have to be so concealed because of your immaturity.
Perhaps you've heard the phrase "he's undressing you with his eyes"? It does not matter what a woman wears, a man's thoughts will go wherever he lets them take him.
I am curious as to your thoughts, I'd appreciate a real answer; thanks in advance.
"now you demand that we cover up from head to toe"
Who made such a demand?
"because you lack the will to demonstrate restraint. Are you that weak, truly?"
Are you that insightful, truly, that you know the hearts and intentions of people that were not even expressed? There is a God, and you are not him. Nor do you have his abilities.
"we shouldn't have to be so concealed because of your immaturity"
The railings, hasty generalizations, ad hominems, straw "person" arguments and other atheistic forms of "logic" are intellectually immature.
"I'd appreciate a real answer"
Did you ask a "real" question, or did you just use hateful rhetoric? I am attempting to do my first article on logical fallacies of atheists and leftists. It should be done in a while, bring your friends.
Your mistake is reading everything with an assumed tone of hatefulness (such is a disadvantage of written word). I am speaking in a matter of fact tone; simply stating my opinion. You are also mistaken on the assumption that I am an atheist; I am not.
The impression I get from your writing is that you are the one who has quite a bit of animosity toward anyone who disagrees with you. I’ll do my best to give you the benefit of the doubt, however.
You failed to give any sort of decent response other than saying that all I have is hateful rhetoric and strawmen, etc. So let me rephrase: Do you think that women should have to cover themselves up, to your standard, because you are (read: are you?) so incapable of controlling your thoughts? Your “demand” that women cover up is given the fact that you say so. You agree with this blog post, and she says to delete all pictures containing any cleavage, anything too revealing, no bikinis, etc.
Now put your big boy pants on and quit your stomping and crying. ;P
Your previous silliness was followed by this attempt at being "rational": "I am speaking in a matter of fact tone; simply stating my opinion."
You simply waved off my observations to pursue your straw man fallacy. Then, you closed by reversing your opening statements: "Now put your big boy pants on and quit your stomping and crying. ;P"
Since this post is not about me, and since you do not wish to be rational (despite your pretentious remarks), I'll see if someone else wants to take the bait.
I think I'll use this in a subsequent article.
@ Vee,
Don't bother any further with Stormbringer. You've done all that you could. Now he hopes that you will be easily manipulated.
Little that poor poor little Stormbringer knows, is that we have grown wise to the confrontational evangelist's bag of dirty tricks.
The proof, well how about the book of counter-evangelism? Google for it for details.
W01F
"Little that poor poor little Stormbringer knows, is that we have grown wise to the confrontational evangelist's bag of dirty tricks."
Actually, quite the contrary is true. You come in here being confrontational and abusive to Trish, get off-topic, make it about how evil men are and everything else. The fact is, many of us are speaking out and showing that atheists are not as clever as they think, and that we have grown wise to the antitheist's bag of tired, old, worn-out dirty tricks.
What are you even talking about? You sound absolutely delusional. And way to avoid the questions and somehow think you have some sort of ammunition; how like Ray Comfort you are becoming, bet you’re real proud of that.
What bait are you throwing out there exactly? I have seen no attempt from you to be rational, but you go ahead and think whatever you like. So are you too cowardly to answer the question? Apparently so. It seems you cannot take a joke either; drop your ego and learn to laugh at yourself, might do you some good. And maybe drop the shameless self-promotion too, it’s pitiful.
You get nowhere—nowhere—when you arrogantly insist that someone is insincere. But it seems that's what you want because you clearly can't answer the question. What a way to be a witness, btw.
"Abusive to Trish?" Are you on crack, Stormy?
Give examples please. I would like to see this.
Amen! It's so encouraging to hear other sisters in Christ talking about this subject. It's not just about making it easier for the guys around us, but honoring Christ even in what we wear!
Noah…
It is unreasonable for you to expect us to not quote the Bible in justifying our stance, since we regard it as ultimate truth. To what ultimate authority do you appeal?
The man is just as responsible to not lust as a woman is responsible to dress modestly. Your assertion of one being more responsible than the other does not hold water. Both are responsible.
That men have abused their position as head of the family (as God has endorsed) in times past has no bearing on what Trish is advocating. God has ordained an order for the family that when practiced according to scripture honors Him and takes advantage of no one. Voluntary submission from top to bottom enriches all and glorifies Him.
23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave [7] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. Galatians 3:23-29
Did you catch that, “for you are all one in Christ Jesus”? Women are our equals in Christ. We do have different but equally important roles as defined by God.
You can prove your own lack of hypocrisy by showing us where you have taken to task those responsible for performing “virginity inspections” on those Egyptian women who were protesting whatever it was they were protesting since you seem so concerned about misogyny and equality. Show us please!
I have not been abusive to Trish, nor I have said anything along the lines of "men are evil." In fact, I am a man, and such a statement would rather counterproductive.
Nor, as often said, is this an attack on any particular type of dressing. I would not expect women all around the world to suddenly very little every day. That would be just the opposite of Trish's desires, and just as wrong. The goal is for women to dress the way they want. That is hardly a bold statement, which is probably why some of you are trying to strawman us into something more sinister.
The burqa comparisons are fairly apt because they reveal how close you are to fundamentalist Islam's expectations of women. If reducing skin can help a brother not stumble, then surely reducing as much as possible will be all the better, yes? At which percentage of skin does the woman stop taking partial responsibility for a man's lust?
Not to mention the effects such a mentality as Trish's can have on women they've become victims of sexual assault. Which, from what I'm reading, nobody has addressed. Apparently Storm just wants to call atheists names and discuss little else.
"The burqa comparisons are fairly apt because they reveal how close you are to fundamentalist Islam's expectations of women."
Now you're just being silly. Why is it that atheists are so fond of straw man fallacies? Perhaps it is the depravity of Romans 1 kicking in.
@bassicallymike
"It is unreasonable for you to expect us to not quote the Bible in justifying our stance, since we regard it as ultimate truth. To what ultimate authority do you appeal?"
I don't do appeals to authority. I leave that kind of behaviour to people who can't cultivate their own inner strenght.
As for the rest of your post, It's not even worth wasting my time with schoolyard antics.
W01F
Lydia said...
Amen! It's so encouraging to hear other sisters in Christ talking about this subject. It's not just about making it easier for the guys around us, but honoring Christ even in what we wear!
Talk about a self-imposed blind woooooosh....
Lynda, honey, get a grip. If the men around you can't be mature, respectful and self-responsible on their own, get outta the preschool and find some real men.
"Lynda, honey, get a grip. If the men around you can't be mature, respectful and self-responsible on their own, get outta the preschool and find some real men."
Spoken in a mature and respectful manner. Oh, boy.
Stormybaby whined: Spoken in a mature and respectful manner. Oh, boy.
Just following your example, darlin' *kiss* *kiss*
Stormybaby whined: Spoken in a mature and respectful manner. Oh, boy.
Just following your example, darlin' *kiss* *kiss*
Stormbringer, how have I misrepresented Trish's position? I did not say that she supports burqas or anything of the sort, but rather how odd it is many of you see burqas as oppressive and yet support clothing standards only a few degrees more liberal.
You did not answer any of my questions. What's the rule on skin? If reducing X% skin is good, then why is going X% +Y% more a bad thing in the case of burqas?
If you wish to call me out on erecting a strawman, then please be specific in how that is the case. Address some of the points I have raised.
Noah said..."I don't do appeals to authority. I leave that kind of behaviour to people who can't cultivate their own inner strenght."
From Wikipedia under "Argument from authority" states...
"Since we cannot have expert knowledge of many subjects, we often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true."
Maybe you should start. Why limit yourself to your own inner strength when you can have the Creators guide book filled with transcendent wisdom of the ages?
Although secular humanism is not a "recognized religion" with a charter and all, this is noteworthy:
In Torcaso v. Watkins (1961), Justice Black of the US Supreme Court wrote the following footnote...
"...Among the religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism, and others..."
So, take it up with the US Supreme Court.
Humanism and atheism are religions because they are world views and are used to determine actions. Would atheists be here saying how bad Christians are if not motivated by beliefs?
“Several here have talked as if dressing modestly is oppressing women. I would say getting women to constantly dress, not for comfort or practicality, but to attract men, is more oppressive.”
The modesty movement doesn’t advocate dressing for comfort over dressing to please men; it advocates dressing to please authority figures over dressing for comfort and independent decision making.
There are those in the modesty movement that want little girls to wear long skirts and bloomers while playing. Do you really think that’s more comfortable than jeans or shorts? There are modest swimsuits that are basically full dresses and knee-length leggings. Do you think everyone is going to find those more comfortable on a hot summer day or more practical for a swim competition?
There are less extreme modesty mavens that say women should never wear pants – that trousers are male garments and therefore women should only wear skirts and dresses. (Funny, since trousers were originally womens clothes from the East.)
Here’s a thought, instead of “getting” women to dress a certain way, you just let women dress how they want? And if you’re a man with problems with that, then maybe you should grow up.
" Now you're just being silly."
True, the modesty movement doesn’t have women wear hijabs, only veils and Little-House-on-the-Prairie bonnets. And there is a difference between a burqa and a double fronted cotton dress or denim jumpers and aprons.
"If you wish to call me out on erecting a strawman, then please be specific in how that is the case. Address some of the points I have raised."
It has been my experience in attempting to edjamakate atheists in their logical fallacies and pointing out their dishonesty that it is a waste of time. If you really cannot see where you have been creating caricatures of Christian beliefs that you expect us to defend, I hope that you will hire other people to do actual thinking for you.
"True, the modesty movement doesn’t have women wear hijabs, only veils and Little-House-on-the-Prairie bonnets. And there is a difference between a burqa and a double fronted cotton dress or denim jumpers and aprons."
Straw man, or non sequitur? Sometimes it's difficult to decide. Either way, you're being silly, too.
Oh, so you can't point it out. Thanks for your honestly, Stormbringer.
No Gordon, they'd take it up with Justice Black. It's an opinion he wrote down, which is fine, but has no bearing on anything substantial. To think that something he wrote applied to the whole court is a gross misrepresentation of the court.
A religion is defined by a common moral code and spiritual elements. Secularism is defined by a lack of religious elements. You can pout and say it's a religion all day, but you are wrong, regardless of what one Justice had to say on the matter.
I just don't like wasting my time, but sometimes it's fun to make atheists squirm in their lack of logic. To assume that because no answer is given is because no answer is possible... let's see, I think that's a non sequitur. Also, quite childish. Until I came across Internet atheists, I haven't seen that kind of childishness for forty years.
Ever see anyone motivated by what they didn't believe in? Rubbish. Atheism is a religion, even though you have no official pope (aside from Dawkins and Ben Stiller Harris), it is a framework for your actions and worldview. You can pout and say it's a not religion all day, but you are wrong. Dead wrong.
"Straw man..."
Do you not know this exists? I sew and knit, which has lead me to many blog posts and discussions similar to Trisha's, but telling women they should wear head coverings and long dresses with reinforced blouse fronts. Making these things is a cottage industry.
"... or non sequitur?"
Or are you saying Christian modesty movements are not relevant to the topic of Christian modesty?
I was fascinated by veiling because, from what I read, the women discussing it never started veiling when they started 'dressing modestly.' This was something they added or were considering because either they didn't think they were being modest enough or because someone told them they weren't being modest enough.
Stormbringer - I read your article. You are blaming women for your own immaturity.
these are what necessary for a true christian.
yeah it's really nice advice and I am following too!!
I know someone on Facebook who talks about Jesus all the time. And I mean all the time. As in, every single thing she's posted is about how wonderful Jesus is.
And it's all the same. It's never, "Jesus is wonderful because this happened or that happened." It's never, "I had a wonderful day today. This and the other happened. Praise Jesus." Never anything like that. It's just a never-ending replay of "Jesus is wonderful." In other words, it's spam.
I don't like spam. No one likes spam.
If she talked about herself a bit, among all the Jesus stuff, I wouldn't mind, but most of her posts may as well be made by a bot.
Don't do that.
Please.
TRiG.
I know someone on Facebook who talks about Jesus all the time. And I mean all the time. As in, every single thing she's posted is about how wonderful Jesus is.
And it's all the same. It's never, "Jesus is wonderful because this happened or that happened." It's never, "I had a wonderful day today. This and the other happened. Praise Jesus." Never anything like that. It's just a never-ending replay of "Jesus is wonderful." In other words, it's spam.
I don't like spam. No one likes spam.
If she talked about herself a bit, among all the Jesus stuff, I wouldn't mind, but most of her posts may as well be made by a bot.
Don't do that.
Please.
TRiG.
I can agree with Trig. There are FB people that post their interests as: Bible, Holy Bible, God's Word, Jesus, Jesus Christ, God, Hymns, Praise Hymns and so on, and so on. They seem off balance by having no other interests.
In the Bible, the Word of God, it says in...
I Timothy 2: 9 & 10
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modes apparel, with shamefacedess and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but which becometh women professing godliness with good works.
I Timothy 2: 9 & 10 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls or costly array; But which becometh women professing Godliness with good works.
Great post, Trisha. Modesty is almost completely lost in our society. Even at church. There was a beautiful woman this morning at church wearing almost no more than a swimsuit would cover. (It was a very shorty short "dress" if you could even call it that.) Thank you for bringing this up and speaking so frankly. More people need to.
I would like to thank you, Trish, for your thoughts and comments. I don't know why some of you are being so harsh on her. I know she takes it in stride, but you are getting so upset over something not even addressed to you. :) The Christians here seem to appreciate her thoughts so why do you think we need "defending?" What's that about Trish being so judgmental? If I don't like what someone thinks, I don't feel it's necessary to persuade everyone else of my opinion. It's still a free country last I checked.
My opinion is that we women generally dress for one of two reasons: to attract attention to how our bodies look, or draw attention to who we are as individuals. Dressing to draw someone's eye to a certain body part can certainly display some of who you are as an individual, but if you dress modestly your personality and individualness shines through much more. Besides, any lady who claims to follow Christ is NOT reflecting Him by displaying His "temple" as though it were something to be bought or sold.
Trish is right on the money.
We must however always keep in mind that the “lusting” guy will not stop lusting after a girl because she looks like a nun. If his heart is depraved he will lust.
Temptations will come but, make sure you are not assisting or facilitating that lust. Keep you conscience clean that is all that you can do.
Do not be amazed when unbelievers laugh at you or call us immature or old fashioned. We have a higher Power to answer to.
So what if our interests are soaked by the things of God. Is that not what is to be expected?
The world is occupied by self and self gratification, they are their own gods.
Problem is that Trish's desire to not have children does not have anything to do with encouraging Christian women to be modest. Nor should the feminist movement (or any other trend) affect Christian conduct as described in the Bible.
Mousefield, please repost your comment. And unhide your profile. Thank you.
Amen trish, awesome post! This really was a blessing to me because I’ve been really grieved over this issue as of late. As a single man, it really bugs me to see Christian women with cleavage, short shorts, etc. It’s almost as if these ladies are my “opponents” in the pursuit of holiness instead of my “sisters”…*sigh*
Well, on the bright side, at least there are some sisters out there (like trish!) in the world who love the men of God and strive to protect our eyes with their modesty!
@ noah buddy
When I was first saved I played Everquest still and yes I stood up in the Plane of Knowledge and had my avatar open air preach and Occasionally I still go on Lord of the rings online as my little hobbit and Open air in the middle of Bree. SO YES EHY NOT PREACH IN EVERY ARENA WE CAN. I never played World of War Craft and no longer enter into Everquest because the woman are dressed very inappropriately. However since LOTRO dresses the woman more appropriately I use it still as a preaching platform online.
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