Tuesday, February 9, 2010

God Created It


26 comments:

Azou said...

I'm sure some people wish it were that obvious. I guess they'll have to make do with circular logic in the meantime.

Heath The Blogless said...

Funnily enough it is that obvious.

Rom 1:19-22 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. (20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22) Claiming to be wise, they became fools,

Heath The Blogless said...

.

Abe said...

Good thing it's in English.

ExPatMatt said...

Heath,

Yes. I'm sure it is that obvious...once you already believe in the Creator-God of the Bible.

If you don't already believe in the God of the Bible, then that God-inspired Bible-verse you quoted is going to be fairly irrelevant, isn't it?

"Believe... and then you will believe!"

Like Azou said; circular logic.

Heath The Blogless said...

ExPatMatt

I take you didn't actually read the verse it did not mention belief anywhere in it. It is saying things how they are. Things do not become true or not true just because you or I believe in them. Truth is that which conforms to reality. The appearance of design in things is because there is a designer. God is saying here that people will reject that truth in order so that they can do what they want.

ExPatMatt said...

*Sigh*

I didn't say that that Bible-passage mentioned 'belief' I said that believing that the Bible is true - and therefore this passage has merit - requires that you believe in the God of the Bible already.

Do you not see that? Really?

"I take you didn't actually read the verse"

actually I did.

"it did not mention belief anywhere in it."

I know

"It is saying..."

It doesn't matter what it's saying! It only matters if you already believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God and if you already believe that then yes, it is going ot be 'obvious' that God created/designed the world.

But if you don't already believe that the Bible is the Word of God then it's just words, written by men and it carries no weight whatsoever.

If you want to show that the universe is 'designed', you're going to have to do it independent of the Bible, otherwise your arguments are going to look incredibly unpersuasive.

Cheers,

Abe said...

So true, people will reject the truth so that they can believe what they want.

Heath The Blogless said...

Can anyone say Anthropic Principle

Heath The Blogless said...

So ExPatMatt your argument can be applied to yourself as well you know. That you must believe the "interpretation" the scientist puts on the evidence. Which are fashioned from his/her preconceived ideas and worldview.

You imply that any one that that anyone that believes the Bible is true is doing it by belief alone. Therefore you may think they are using circular reasoning.

I will leave it up to you to give an "honest" investigation into the evidences for the Bibles divine origins, not just one that tries to pick faults with it. I am not saying don't question but try to put bias and preconception aside (can be very difficult to do).

I don't have the time to go through all the research I did to come to my conclusion that the Bible is trustworthy.
But I will say it wasn't until I was about 30 that I did so. Before that I was very skeptical if not mocking of the Bible. I did not grow up in a Christian home I did not have the Bible rammed down my throat as a kid.
Because of these reasons and because of other some other life changing experiences, I will always use it not just as a defense for my position, but as the basis for it.

Abe said...

Good for you Heath. You believe the Bible stories.
What we call Mythologies were once the Religions of their time, stories that they believed and used for morals. All believers believe that their God is the true one... why else would they have faith in them?
I've known Christians that became Buddist, Jews that became Christians... all seeking spiritual guidance and enlightenment. Science, 'Nature' has been mine, I don't need to see a 'designer', specially one that would punish and reward his design.

Heath The Blogless said...

You total miss the point Abe the Bible is not just mere Mythologies or stories. If you would take the time to study it's "actual" origins and the supporting evidence for its trustworthiness, you may actually find out that many Christians don't just have a blind faith (or just believe) in the Bible.

I like how you say punish and reward his design. I think you have a misunderstanding of one of the basics of Christianity.
You seem to assume that we can do something worthy of reward. Christianity actually says we do nothing worthy of reward. The gift of salvation in itself can not be earned by doing good works. It is just that a gift.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9"
The core is not about how to live a better life. It has a common theme throughout the Bible. God made us, gave us rules to live by we Broke (are still breaking) those rules. There is a punishment for our disobedience and that punishment must be payed. You can not pay off your punishment (debt) by being good from now on or doing lots good works or living a religious life. The only way to pay that debt is to pay it yourself in Hell. Or it is for God himself to pay the debt for you. Justice will be done, God can not go against his own nature of being just, holy and righteous. Our sins will be paid for, that includes you me and every one else. either you and I will pay for them ourselves or God will pay for them. I am no more worthy of God's Grace than anyone else.

Abe said...

Oh, so it's a gift that keeps on giving and a designed place to pay for your 'debt', Hell. That makes better sense.

Heath The Blogless said...

I am glad that you can see that.

ExPatMatt said...

Anthropic Principle

ExPatMatt said...

Heath,

"So ExPatMatt your argument can be applied to yourself as well you know."

How so? I'm not trying to argue a point or defend a stated position based on an authority that you don't recognize, am I? If I was, then I'd expect you to call me on it.

"That you must believe the "interpretation" the scientist puts on the evidence."

What are you talking about? I haven't mentioned science anywhere in this thread.

The point you're trying to make would only work if I were saying; "Richard Dawkins says we evolved and, because he's always right about evolution, we can know that this is true. Why don't you just accept the obvious?!"

But clearly I'm not saying this, or anything like it, am I?

"Which are fashioned from his/her preconceived ideas and worldview."

Including many, many theists. So, what's your point?

"You imply that any one that that anyone that believes the Bible is true is doing it by belief alone."

I did not say that at all. Where are you getting this stuff from?! You can come to your belief however you like; maybe you witnessed a miracle, maybe you've studied the history of the Bible and it makes the most sense to conclude that it's true. It doesn't matter - you still end up in a position where you believe the Bible to be the Word of God. Right?

"Therefore you may think they are using circular reasoning."

It's only circular reasoning if you're trying to convince someone else of what you believe by citing the very thing you're trying to get them to believe as if they already believed it

"I will leave it up to you to give an "honest" investigation into the evidences for the Bibles divine origins, not just one that tries to pick faults with it."

Why is honesty in quotation marks here? Have I ever said anything for you to doubt my honesty?

"I am not saying don't question but try to put bias and preconception aside (can be very difficult to do)."

I would encourage this same approach in every walk of life.

BathTub said...

The Basics of Christianity is that God deliberately created Satan and the Demons.
Deliberately created Adam & Eve knowing they would disobey him. Thanks Satan.
Then as punishment for this setup he arranged he cursed Everything with death.
Then a little while later God arranges to directly kill everything on the planet except for a guy and his family and what is saved in a boat. Kill by drowning, rather than say just make them disappear and start again.
Then because he is a god of love, he sends himself in the form of his son to earth to sacrifice himself to himself by crucifiction to pay off the sin he set up with adam and eve.
And of course if you aren't convinced by these 3rd hand reports written decades afterwards of which no agreement can be made on their interpretation, well then Eternal Hellfire awaits.

Heath The Blogless said...

BathTub you have brought up some interesting points and they are defiantly not the basics of Christianity. If you actually interested in the answers to these points, you will need to do a study on the nature and Character of God. May I suggest a book to get you started - The sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink.

ExPatMatt
I put Honest in quotations to emphasize the point about how we go about investigation. I was not point fingers at anybody.

BathTub said...

I would certainly be interested in which parts you disagree with.

Did God not know what he was doing when he created Satan and all the fallen angels?

Do you think God didn't know the outcome of making Adam & Eve and putting them in the garden?

Do you think God had no choice but to murder by drowning all the Men, Women, children and babies, and trillions of animals?

Abe said...

Interesting there's nothing 'bout Satan punishing, killing or making anyone suffer for their sins... oh, tempting someone, yes, but murdering babies with an angel of death, destroying cities, flooding.
So, this wise cracking fallen angel Satan does what other than tempt you into sin that has been forgiven if you have Jesus?
He keeps the coals hot for the BBQ?
'The Holy Bible', not just stories, but the 'Word of God'?
Stories 'bout a mortal woman impregnated by a God above and her only son, a 'human sacrifice' for the sins of the world so you can live eternally?
'Believe', yes Blogless, believe n' you will recieve a smile on face 'cause with faith you need no proof and with proof you need no faith.
Religion is a drug for the poor n' weak minded.

Happy in this Real 'non-supernatual' World,
Abe

Heath The Blogless said...

Read the book I told abe about it does a good job of explaining it, far better than I could do with the time I spend on blogs.

BathTub said...

They are realitively straight forward. I want to know what you think. I don't care enough to dig up some apolgetics book to find out what they think.

I already know the answer varies from Christian to Christian.

Heath The Blogless said...

To start with it is not an apologetics book it is far from it. It is a theology book. To answer the question properly you need to go down deep into the very nature and character of God, who He is and how He does things. There is no simple answer to the question. That is why I suggested the book I don't have time to go into the details here, especially with one someone who is not genuinely seeking after God, but who has demonstrated that they just want to find ways to catch Christians out. If you are genuine in your questions read the book, I tend to agree with most of what A.W. Pink says.

BathTub said...

Heh, well don't worry about it. I am getting very used to people on these blogs not answering questions.

Heath The Blogless said...

Thanks for the permission not to worry about it, I told you where the answers are, so read the book.

BathTub said...

You are quite welcome.