Sunday, August 2, 2009

Look what happens when you go with the flow...


29 comments:

stranger.strange.land said...

There does seem to be some kind of sense of security in going the way of the vast majority. It appears to lessen our own personal accountability if we are "doing what everybody is doing."

Safety in numbers? No; but as the title of Solomon Stoddard's sermon reads: "The Safety of Being Found in Christ on the Day of Judgment."

Craig

Whateverman said...

Something about this message bugs me, but I can't quite put my finger on it. I'm tempted to ask, of the two which of Christianity or Atheism is more flow-like.

But I don't really think that's fair (regardless of which you choose).

I guess I just don't see anything useful in the message. No matter what you do in life, you're always going with one flow or another. You can never be a rebel, because your thoughts/ideas/opinions were all formed thru contact with people you now agree with.

Think the world is too atheistic or un-Godly? You're part of contemporary Christianity.

Think religion is hogwash? You're part of the 12% of the American population that labels itself as Atheist or Agnostic.

What exactly is the wisdom of avoiding the pitfalls of agreeing with other people?

feedtheneed52 said...

There definitely is security in numbers.The thing we as Christians need to beware of is which "group" we are in.Do their actions,reactions and final "fruits"agree with Gods word.If not,you should extricate yourself from that group.

stranger.strange.land said...

WEM

Simple as 1,2,3

1. Judgment is coming. (Flood/Final judgment)

2. Get into the ark/Christ (you are safe)

3. Don't get into the ark/Christ (You are doomed)

Kaitlyn said...

FeedTheNeed52 wrote...
"The thing we as Christians need to beware of is which "group" we are in."

I agree. The Catholic and Episcopal Churches are the "pillar and foundation" when it comes to the word of God. See 1 Timothy 3:15.

I went to a Catholic school growing up.

Heath The Blogless said...

To Whateverman
Matt 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Atheism or Agnosticism are hardly what you would call difficult. I don't think this message is talking specifically about Atheism it is talking about any one with a false God, and many of those people still call them selves Christians, but they do not truly love God.

John 14:15
If you love Me, keep My commandments.


Matt 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Heath The Blogless said...

Kaitlyn

You write as though you are a Christian. Why then do you have the raytractors blog as your only blog in "my blogs" on your profile. Do you align yourself with people that hate God? (Reject him as real).

Are you trying to stir things up here or do you actually mean what you say about the Catholic church, either way I think you have been seriously misguided. I pray for you.

Kaitlyn said...

I'm an atheist, don't get me wrong. I just went to Catholic school when I was young; so I know that the Catholic church is the foundation and pillar of Christianity.

Kaitlyn said...

"I don't think this message is talking specifically about Atheism it is talking about any one with a false God"

You are quite mistaken if you believe atheists worship a false god. Atheists do not worship any god, which the Bible talks about briefly.

Psalm 14:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

"Fool" may not be the best translation - it should be read as "morally corrupt," or "person who lacks morals."

However, we both know that atheists often do good. Also, Psalms are part of the old testament, which makes them not part of the new covenant brought by Jesus Christ.

Finally, stating atheists are sinners means very little in light of Romans 3:23.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

As for the new Testament, there is a problem regarding atheists in John 3...

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." - John 3:18

But taken in context, Jesus was speaking allegorically to Nicodemus from one rabbi to another. Notice that Jesus said that those who do not believe in the NAME of Jesus Christ will not go to heaven. In other words, Jesus was talking about people who don't believe in the message not the person of Jesus Christ that will not go to heaven.

Jesus was clearly speaking more about doing evil against Jesus's teaching rather than saying all atheists will burn in a lake of fire as seen in context with the later lines of John 3.

Kaitlyn said...

Heath The Blogless said..
"Do you align yourself with people that hate God? (Reject him as real)."

There is a big difference between hating God and rejecting Him as real.

Hate is a very strong word, only to be used when appropriate. Not a single atheist shows any sign of anger toward God. It's a bit like showing anger toward the Easter Bunny; it can't be done.

Now, you are correct when you say atheists reject God as real. However, they have not "rejected God," they simply choose to live their lives without a belief in God. Many actively support and encourage Jesus-like behavior and compassion toward others.

In fact, the Unitarian Church uses the Jeffersonian Bible to teach about Jesus, but they remain agnostic on the point of God's actual existence. This church often welcomes atheists into their flock.

Whateverman said...

I think I was reading too much into the picture, when I really should have been taking it literally. Of course it's about getting on board the ark (literally or metaphorically).

I don't know why I didn't see it before. Sorry :)

Heath The Blogless said...

Matt 12:30
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.



18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause.’


While you may not show anger towards God you do show total contempt for him by rejecting him. When he has given you your life, the air you breath and every thing else that you have. While you say that atheist say that you do good, the fact that you have broken the greatest of God's commandments, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind." Shows that you think to highly of your good deeds. God says in Isaiah 64:6a But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;

If you chose to reject what is most important to God and do what you think would be better even when he says it is not, do you not put yourself above God, making yourself your own God.

Your reason for rejecting the Psalms because they are not in the new testament contradicts what paul says about scripture 2 Tim 3:16-17 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

You said "Jesus was clearly speaking more about doing evil against Jesus's teaching rather than saying all atheists will burn in a lake of fire as seen in context with the later lines of John 3."
My question to you is what were Jesus teachings, What did he say about himself, what did he say about Hell, and what did he say about who goes there?

bassicallymike said...

Katilyn said.....You are quite mistaken if you believe atheists worship a false god.

Sorry Katilyn, but that statement is patently false, for atheists and sceptics worship unabashedly at the feet of their own intellect.

Think about it!

zilch said...

The Fairly Intelligent Fly!

One day a fairly intelligent fly buzzed around the web so long without lighting that the spider appeared and said, "Come on down." But the fly was too clever for him and said, "I never light where I don't see other flies and I don't see other flies in your house." So he flew away until he came to a place where there were a great many other flies. He was about to settle down among them when a bee buzzed up and said, "Hold it stupid, that's flypaper. All those flies are trapped." "Don't be silly," said the fly, "they're dancing." So he settled down and became stuck to the flypaper with all the other flies.

Moral: There is no safety in numbers, or in anything else.

James Thurber

Kaitlyn said...

Heath wrote...
"While you may not show anger towards God you do show total contempt for him by rejecting him. "

For the last time, there's not an ounce of contempt for God within the hearts of atheists as assuredly there is not an ounce of contempt in your heart for the Easter Bunny.

"do you not put yourself above God, making yourself your own God[?]"

No, of course not. Just because atheists don't believe in God doesn't mean they go out looking for replacements externally or internally.

Do you not put yourself above the Easter Bunny, making yourself your own Easter Bunny? Of course you don't. :)

Your reason for rejecting the Psalms because they are not in the new testament contradicts what paul says about scripture...

I could go on a long diatribe about Paul, but I won't. All I will say is this: you can't pick and choose what you want out of the Old Testament, and I bet you are not going to defend or encourage the execution of adulterers.

"If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. " - Deuteronomy 22:22-24

"My question to you is what were Jesus teachings, What did he say about himself, what did he say about Hell, and what did he say about who goes there?"

It would take too long to answer this in detail. However, Jesus was big on works, and made it clear on several occasion that judgment will come from sinning. Thus he said it's better to pluck your eyeball out if it causes you to sin.

"And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell" - Matthew 5:29

Kaitlyn said...

Heath wrote:
"Matt 12:30
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad."


This is out of context. Jesus was talking about how a house divided will not stand and the accusation that Jesus was a spawn of the devil. Who is not with Jesus in this context are demons and those who think Jesus is evil, not atheists.

Kaitlyn said...

"bassicallymike said...

Katilyn said.....You are quite mistaken if you believe atheists worship a false god.

Sorry Katilyn, but that statement is patently false, for atheists and sceptics worship unabashedly at the feet of their own intellect."


And I'm assuming this is supposed to be a pun...

Think about it!

Okay, "to worship", particularly in the context of God, means

to render religious reverence and homage to.

or...

To honor and love as a deity.

No atheist that I have met pays religious homage to themselves, and they certainly don't treat treat their intellect as a deity. So no, atheists do not worship their own intellect as they would a god.

Heath The Blogless said...

Kaitlyn

Contempt
1. A feeling that someone or something is not important and deserves no respect.

2. complete lack of fear about something.

3. disobedience or disrespect towards a court of law.

You Show your contempt for God each day that you say that he does not exist. You show your contempt when you say he has done nothing for you. You show your contempt when you say that he did not create all things. You show contempt when you use His word as a moral guide and yet say it is not from him.

god
4. [countable] something which you give too much importance or respect to.

You make yourself god when you say he does not exist, you make yourself god, when you say that what you think is right and that he is wrong, you make yourself god when you disobey his laws, you make yourself god, when you say he is wrong.

I continue to pray for you.

bassicallymike said...

Kaitlyn said...So no, atheists do not worship their own intellect as they would a god.

Overtly, no! In essence, yes.

Was it not Garrison Keillor who said,“I believe in looking reality straight in the eye and denying it.”

This is what the Bible accuses all atheist of doing. Looking straight into the reality of Creation and denying not only God, but also denying him as Creator.

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:19-21 ESV

I urge you to listen to your conscience. Even though you may "actively support and encourage Jesus-like behavior and compassion toward others", do you personally lie, steal, lust, hate or covet and does your conscience condemn you? I urge you to “Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;
Isaiah 55:6 ESV

Moises said...

Hearth wrote...
"You Show your contempt for God..."

You are not using contempt in the correct context. You cannot show contempt for something that you think does not exist. There has to be someone or something there to show contempt toward.

"god
4. [countable] something which you give too much importance or respect to."

Now you're just quote mining the dictionary, probably an obscure and bad one like the Longman dictionary at that, looking for obscure meanings of words that have no relation to what we're talking about.

Time and time again, fundamentalists like you show a total disregard for context, choosing instead to quote mine small, indivisible quotations from the Bible and any other literary source to fit your viewpoint as opposed to shaping your perspective in response to what is written. I hate to sound harsh, but someone who doesn't understand context is called, "functionally illiterate."

Chris said...

Kaitlyn -

I agree. The Catholic and Episcopal Churches are the "pillar and foundation" when it comes to the word of God. See 1 Timothy 3:15.

so I know that the Catholic church is the foundation and pillar of Christianity.

No denomination or pseudo-Christian entity is the 'foundation' and 'pillar' of Christianity. Christ Himself is the foundation of Christianity. 1 Timothy 3:15 states:

if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

Aside from the verse NOT saying what you are claiming it to, this is a complete mis-characterization and understanding of what 'The Church' is - and it is NOT The RCC/Catholicism/Protestantism or whatever else you want to label it.

The verse, with surrounding verses reads:

14 I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these things to you so that, 15 if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth. 16 Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness:

He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated by the Spirit,
seen by angels,
proclaimed among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.


Paul states that he is writing these things so that he (that is Timothy) will know how those who are of 'the household of God' are to behave. The 'household of God' IS 'the church of the living God'. The 'household of God' IS the pillar and foundation of TRUTH. It does NOT say that the Catholic or Episcopal Church are the pillar and foundation of Christianity or the Word of God...

The word 'church' does not consist of any one corporate entity like 'The Catholic' or 'Episcopal' church. It is quite literally 'the called out ones' or 'the congregation/assembly of believers', the Body of Christ. Those who are of the assembly (ekklesia) are those who agree/confess the great mystery of godliness as stated in verse 16.

To bring this point home further, Hebrews 3:1-6 reads:

3 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our CONFESSION, or whom we confess 2 who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful IN ALL GOD'S HOUSE. 3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself. 4 (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.) 5 Now Moses was faithful in all God’s house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later, 6 but Christ is faithful over God’s house as a son. And WE ARE HIS HOUSE IF INDEED WE HOLD FAST OUR CONFIDENCE AND OUR BOASTING IN OUR HOPE.

Chris said...

Kaitlyn -

Psalm 14:1
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."

"Fool" may not be the best translation - it should be read as "morally corrupt," or "person who lacks morals."


No, this is incorrect. The understanding for 05036/nabal is

1) foolish, senseless, fool

from 5034 (nabel) stupid; wicked (especially impious):-
fool(-ish, -ish man, -ish woman), vile person.


However, we both know that atheists often do good.

Really irrelevant, especially in light of the fact that how you think it should be translated is wrong.

Also, Psalms are part of the old testament, which makes them not part of the new covenant brought by Jesus Christ.

This, of course, is incorrect as well. Jesus did not come to destroy the law, He came to fulfill it. The Old Testament was never rendered null and void and is nothing more than a librarians term much like the 'major' and the 'minor' prophets since none are any more or less major than the others. The 'new testament' is concealed in the old. The 'old testament' is revealed in the new.

Whateverman said...

Bassicallymike wrote I urge you to listen to your conscience.

I wont speak for Kaitlyn, but as a person who rejects Christian dogma, I listen to my conscience constantly. The little voice that yells when I'm doing something wrong, or when I should be doing something differently - it's happy every time I reject arguments like yours.

My inner voice says you folks are completely wrong about the nature of God. Completely and absolutely wrong, and are unwilling to consider that possibility because you're afraid.

If you think God speaks to you via your conscience, then only human faith in human perception allows you to say "My conscience is right and yours is wrong".

Mine may be wrong - I can admit that. Can you do the same?

Chris said...

Moises -

Time and time again, fundamentalists like you show a total disregard for context, choosing instead to quote mine small, indivisible quotations from the Bible and any other literary source to fit your viewpoint as opposed to shaping your perspective in response to what is written.

Interestingly enough, that's precisely what our friend, Kaitlyn did with 1 Timothy 3:15, no?

Biblically, Heath is justified in the definition of a little 'g' god - it's idolatry; that would be anything put in place of the one true Creator God, YHWH Elohim.

bassicallymike said...

WEM, WB, hope you found gainful employment!

You said..."The little voice that yells when I'm doing something wrong, or when I should be doing something differently"

That's good news! Your conscience still works.

- it's happy every time I reject arguments like yours.


So apparently you have some type of humanistic conscience salve you apply when it does go to yelling. Absolutely! I was right there with you once upon a time myself.

It is not about who's conscience is right and wrong, it is all about agreeing with what God says about our sinful state. I agree with God, I am a wretched sinner without hope, short of repentance and faith in Jesus sacrificial death.

You seem to deny God's existance, his roll as Creator and any right he might have to make on you as your Creator.

My fallen conscience is fallible and I must constantly benchmark my thoughts and actions against God's Word. I do however have God's Spirit which:
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:16 ESV
and
He who has prepared us for this very thing(death) is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:5 ESV

which I have only by the grace of God and that not of myself.

stranger.strange.land said...

WEM,

I think Mike probably uses the scriptures as a check on his conscience. You apparently use, what did you say, a happy feeling? an inner voice?

Craig B

Whateverman said...

Hi Craig (siasl). You wrote:

I think Mike probably uses the scriptures as a check on his conscience. You apparently use, what did you say, a happy feeling? an inner voice?

My inner voice *is* my conscience. If you're asking me what I use to "regulate" it, I'd say the answer is common sense. Note that for me, the conscience and common sense are two different things altogether.

---

bassicallymike wrote to me "So apparently you have some type of humanistic conscience salve you apply when it does go to yelling."

No, 'Mike. My conscience is the closest thing I have to direct communication with God. Is it so hard to believe that mine speaks differently than yours does? Or perhaps are you stricken with your own sense of moral superiority to believe that your conscience is superior to those whom you disagree with?

Either way, a conscience, by definition, is never a salve. It was arrogant of you to suggest otherwise.


Bassicallymike also wrote to me "You seem to deny God's existance (sic)". No - I deny the existence of your God, Mike. There's a big difference.

Mummy in training said...

Hahaha. Where do you find these things Trish? This is hilarious!!

--Lissie

bassicallymike said...

WEM-Jon,
I am a wretched sinner saved by grace so as such, I personally, have no moral superior basis from which to argue, so quit trying to sing that song.

you said..."a conscience, by definition, is never a salve. It was arrogant of you to suggest otherwise."

I did not define conscience as a salve. I intimated that you placate (salve) your conscience "when it yells" in some fashion or another. Maybe that is what you considered arrogant on my part. Personally, I believe common sense far too subjective a standard to be used as the “regulator” of conscience. I am infinitely more comfortable lining up with the standard The Creator has established to guide the conscience. If that is considered arrogant, then count me guilty as charged.

You deny the existence of my God (of the Bible) yet speak of your conscience as ” the closest thing I have to direct communication with God “. At the risk of being considered arrogant again, I must say, one of us has a false god and is guilty of idolatry.
Man is made in the image of God and must live in the world God created. Every person who is a non-theist must live with a contradiction between what he says he believes and what is actually true. Greg Koukl
It is rather obvious you detest being confronted with God’s standard, final judgment, and eternal punishment. My conscience toward you is clear though. God will use our discussion as either another blow of the Gospel hammer to eventually bring you to repentance and faith in Him, or as another example on Judgment Day of your deliberate rejection of Jesus being the Way, the Truth and the Life resulting in eternal punishment in Hell.
I urge you to think on these things.