Wednesday, February 4, 2009

Interesting Comments

Reynold says, "Then there are all sorts of accidents and disasters in which many people die. Those are ignored or disregarded as "god's will" or some such thing, but when something like this happens, you people rush in and use it as a "proof" that your "god" exists."

Not true around true Christians. I don't know who you've been surrounding yourself with...perhaps false converts (people who claim to be Christians but aren't) or those who don't have a right view of God...perhaps heretics. But God exists and is good even when there is calamity. If the flight that landed in the Hudson would have went down and everyone perished, then God would still be on the throne and in control. He would work everything out so that He would receive the most glory.

Reynold says, "Is something good happens, your "god" gets the credit. If something bad happens, well, it's his will. Just as you've demonstrated."

Scripture says it best. Listen to Romans 8:28: "...in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." This verse is misquoted a lot but notice the words "of those who love him". This means that there is really nothing bad that can befall on the life of a Christian. But this is only for the Christian. And God will work everything out for the good. Even if I were to be tortured, burned, or the worse...I take great joy and confidence knowing that I live for Christ and if I die I will die for Christ. Romans 8: 31-39

“What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written:

“ For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”

Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

But remember this is ONLY for the one who has turned from their sins and placed their faith in Jesus Christ.

Reynold says, "That's why it's impossible to test to see if he actually exists or not...all the excuses you people make up to explain away any failures."

Not true at all. You know He exists that's why you are fighting against Him and His people. And the scriptures speak about you. You have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and you love your sin. Romans 1: 18-25:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

Reynold, God’s mercy has allowed you to hear the glorious Gospel one more time. Please, humble yourself before God. You may not have tomorrow. Repent and recognize that you have violated God's holy law and your conscience knows it. When you lie...you have a conscience that speaks to you. The bible commands that you repent (Acts 17:30). And God will open your eyes and your heart and transfer you from the Kingdom of darkness TO the kingdom of light. There is still time. Cry out to God while you have breath. I realize that this may be the 30th time or maybe the 300th time that you have heard someone tell you to “repent and trust in the only One who can save you” (namely Christ)…but we will plead with you again. Please cry out to God and recognize that you have broken His commandments and that His wrath abides upon you. He will give you eternal life that does not fade away.

"God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 1 Peter 5:5

42 comments:

Reynold said...

Not true around true Christians. I don't know who you've been surrounding yourself with...perhaps false converts (people who claim to be Christians but aren't) or those who don't have a right view of God...perhaps heretics.
No, you don't have a clue who I've been hanging around with. Thing is, from reading your own blog, you're not any different really.

Remember the post about the Hudson plane crash? You have "god" holding the wings of the plane, and you say that that's the real reason for how well the incident turned out. You yourself do exactly the thing I'm talking about: You used that as evidence of your god's existence.

You also say that no matter what happens, God is good. How so?

Remember your comment to "Inciatus":
This creation is a rebellious creation; and God, being God, and the Creator, can do whatever He wishes, and still remains just.

Think about it for a minute...any being who can do whatever he wants is NOT a moral being. What you describe is an amoral being at best.

How can you tell is he's moral or not? Because he says so? This is the being who allows, and orders killing in the first place. Do the rights of the victims, their pain and suffering not count for anything or what?

For example: If god allowed you to be attacked, raped and killed, where is the "glory" in that? Where is the glory in a god who'd allow that to happen? All you do is repeate a bible verse Romans 8:28 where you get that nonsense from. You just repeated yourself. You didn't justify it or explain it.


If that's too much to grasp, imagine a father allowing that to be done to his daughter. See the analogy here?

But God exists and is good even when there is calamity.
Nice to be able to dismiss every single example of the contrary. With that way of thinking, anyone who you applied that standard to would be "good" also.

If the flight that landed in the Hudson would have went down and everyone perished, then God would still be on the throne and in control.
In your view, but one thing: You wouldn't have been able to make that cutsey cartoon with "God" holding the wings of the plane, giving him credit for the lives saved now, would you?

He would work everything out so that He would receive the most glory.
Oh good. Explain please how he could get "glory" from that.

Basically, explain how you could tell a "just God" from an "unjust God" using your criterion of him being able to do whatever he wants.




Ok, I need a drink after reading this:
Reynold says, "That's why it's impossible to test to see if he actually exists or not...all the excuses you people make up to explain away any failures."

Not true at all. You know He exists that's why you are fighting against Him and His people.
Uh no. Care to prove that? Good grief. The reason I'm "fighting" against "Him and His people" is that you people have too much influence in society, especially when it comes to the dumbing-down of science in school. Then there's people whose kids die because they follow the bible and use prayer instead of medicine, etc.

This kind of thinking needs to be exposed.And of course, there's the few hundred years of history when you people were in power, etc.

Try thinking for a minute: How'd you refute a Muslim who said that you know that his god exists and you know it; that's why you're fighting him?

And the scriptures speak about you. You have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and you love your sin. Romans 1: 18-25:
Sorry, but the "scriptures" are wrong. Just as they're wrong when they say that the mustard seed is the "least" of all seeds, or that "Christ" would return in the lifetimes of the people who were around when he was supposed to be on earth.

I discussed this on Ray's blog here and here

Reynold, God’s mercy has allowed you to hear the glorious Gospel one more time. Please, humble yourself before God. You may not have tomorrow.
Don't you realize that when you people, like your Calvinist friend javier claims that all things happen according to "God's will" that appealing to me is useless? If he doesn't want me to be "saved", he won't have me "accept him".

Or do you subscribe to a little bit more free will than that?

Fish with Trish said...

No, Reynold. There are certain things God can't do. 1. He can never deny Himself. 2. He can't lie. 3. He can never worship anyone besides Himself

Reynold said...

No, Reynold. There are certain things God can't do.
Then you shouldn't have said earlier that ...God, being God, and the Creator, can do whatever He wishes, and still remains just., now eh?


1. He can never deny Himself.
How can anyone actually "deny" themselves?

This is more of a physical impossibility than a moral action. I'm talking about moral actions.

2. He can't lie.
Now, we're talking about a moral action. But...number 2 is not exactly right, now is it? For instance:

2 Chronicles 18:20
Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?
18:21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

Then there's
Ezekiel 14:9
And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

Trish:
3. He can never worship anyone besides Himself
If he exists, how could he?

You've missed the point...remember what you said previously: This creation is a rebellious creation; and God, being God, and the Creator, can do whatever He wishes, and still remains just.

Explain how you could tell a "just God" from an "unjust God" using your criterion of him being able to do whatever he wants.

Melanie said...

Try thinking for a minute: How'd you refute a Muslim who said that you know that his god exists and you know it; that's why you're fighting him?

What you are missing is that it is not the ONLY way to know that He (the true and living God) exists.

For example: If god allowed you to be attacked, raped and killed, where is the "glory" in that? Where is the glory in a god who'd allow that to happen?

You expect that because YOU cannot see how God can be glorified then therefore there is no way that He can be.

Trish (and Ray) are very congenial people. To me, if you really want to believe, you will open your heart to Him. If you don't, you will continue to go rounds with anyone that comes across your path, knowing that no matter what they say you are not going to agree.

Once someone has done this enough, God just allows it to be what it is. Even He acknowledges when someone has made their choice. He won't force you. But don't expect people to invest in explaining things to you when you have no thought of even considering what they have to say.

And no, I won't be responding back just as I never do to the people on Rays blog. Ray has his blog there for another purpose that he has made clear on several occasions. I just go along for the ride for as long as it's there, and am thankful for it.

I really hope that you consider what Trish has said to you. There's so much more to this life than what you can see with your eyes.

Reynold said...

You expect that because YOU cannot see how God can be glorified then therefore there is no way that He can be.
No, because I can't see how he could be glorified, I'm asking you people who claim that he can be glorified through such events just how that can be. So far, I'm still waiting for the answer. I've been told that he can be "glorified" through those events, but I've not been told how. If you knew, I assume you would have told me.

You didn't.

Trish (and Ray) are very congenial people. To me, if you really want to believe, you will open your heart to Him. If you don't, you will continue to go rounds with anyone that comes across your path, knowing that no matter what they say you are not going to agree.
Wrong. I, and the people on Ray's blog ask for evidence. That's it. What you people seem to want is for us to shut off our brains and just blindly believe. Sorry, we're people, not robots.

Fish with Trish said...

Reynold said, "I can't see how he could be glorified..."

Of course you can't Reynold, you need God to regenerate you and give you a new heart. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" Prov 1:7. Because you don't fear God...you are not thinking the thoughts of God after Him.

The worst travesty of all time was the sinless Son of God dying on the cross. Jesus did nothing wrong and He was still crucified. He was perfect, yet died for sinners. And out of the seemingly terrible circumstance, God redeemed His sheep (His people). There is a saying, "Behind every frowning providence is the sovereign smile of God."

Reynold said...

Fish with Trish said...

Reynold said, "I can't see how he could be glorified..."

Of course you can't Reynold, you need God to regenerate you and give you a new heart. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" Prov 1:7. Because you don't fear God...you are not thinking the thoughts of God after Him.

It sounds like circular reasoning to me. Kind of like "it won't make sense until you just stop thinking about it and just believe", or "our doctrine won't make any sense until you accept them as truth".


The worst travesty of all time was the sinless Son of God dying on the cross. Jesus did nothing wrong and He was still crucified.
Tell me, is this the same kind of "sinlessness" that you attribute to "God", even though he has people killed, while you people excuse it by saying stuff like: "...and God, being God, and the Creator, can do whatever He wishes, and still remains just.", or is this the "sinless" that means that Christ was able to successfully live under the laws that "God" gave to humanity to live under?

If it's the former, than no matter what "Christ" would have done on earth would have been excused away as him being "God" and therefore he can do whatever he wants and still remain "just".

If the latter, then there's a problem: He didn't perfectly obey the laws...
Lying
John 7:7-10 (King James Version)
The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast: for my time is not yet full come.

When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

Did his "time fully come" between the time that he said that he can't go to the party, and the time that he snuck up there later?

having a person suffer for years needlessly:
John 9:2-7
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,

And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

Imagine a doctor messing up one of his patients just so that he could show off his curing abilities later...

He was "pro-slavery":
1 Timothy 6:1-4

Matt 21:1-4
He had his disciples take some guy's animals without asking first.

There's also a problem with the supposed prophecy (see sidebar) that those verses were supposed to fulfill.
The gospels (especially Mt.21:4-5 and Jn.12:14-15) claim that Jesus fulfils the prophecy of Zech.9:9. But the next few verses (9:10-13) show that the person referred to in this verse is a military king that would rule "from sea to sea". Since Jesus had neither an army or a kingdom, he could not have fulfilled this prophecy.

Also, in the context of that prophecy in Zechariah:
No oppressor shall pass through them any more."
Israel shall never again be oppressed. Another obviously false prophecy; Israel has been occupied many times since the time of Zechariah.

Isreal has indeed been oppressed since Jesus took that donkey ride; unlike the verses in Zechariah which imply that the ruler on the donkey would ensure that they'd never be oppressed again.




He was perfect, yet died for sinners. And out of the seemingly terrible circumstance, God redeemed His sheep (His people). There is a saying, "Behind every frowning providence is the sovereign smile of God."
I'd figure the Holocaust was worse. Why? Millions of people killed as opposed to one guy who stayed dead for only 3 days.


Besides, it seems that I'm the wrong person to talk to about accepting "Christ". According to your own holy book and the beliefs of your calvinist friend "Javier", it's not really in my hands but rather it's all up to "God". So why even bother "witnessng" anyway?

John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Romans 8:29-30 (King James Version)
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.



Romans 9:13-23
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Ephesians 1:5-7, 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Fish with Trish said...

"Wrong. I, and the people on Ray's blog ask for evidence. That's it. What you people seem to want is for us to shut off our brains and just blindly believe. Sorry, we're people, not robots."

Reynold, we don't want you to shut off your brains at all. Actually we are praying that God will regenerate your mind so that you will think properly--thinking the thoughts of God after Him.
My ultimate reference point is the Bible. What is yours? Ray's evidence and my evidence is the same. We take our evidence and facts from the Bible, which is historical and reliable--it has more manuscript evidence than any other work of antiquity of old. The burden of proof is on you. Please provide proof as to why the bible is not historical, reliable, and why it's not God's authoritative Word.

Reynold said...

When it comes to evolution, Ray doesn't have a clue...as you'd see if you actually read his posts about it and the comments left behind by those who try to correct them.

I'd advise doing some reading about it:
29+ Evidences for Macroevolution on the TalkOrigins Archive and the Index to Creationist Claims,

Reynold, we don't want you to shut off your brains at all. Actually we are praying that God will regenerate your mind so that you will think properly--thinking the thoughts of God after Him.
As the bible verses I've listed before have shown: You need to talk to him, not me, it seems.


On a previous comment, I gave an example of a failed prophecy.

For more about Prophecies, you could read Bible Prophecy: Failure or Fulfillment? by Tim Callahan, for "messianic prophecies" go to the MessiahTruth dot com site, especially the Knowing Your Orchard and Judaism's Answer section

For info about the bible and archeology, you could read The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of its Sacred Texts by Neil Asher Silberman


Ah, good enough for now.

Fish with Trish said...

Reynold, thanks for sharing all these different books. I can’t defend Ray when it comes to the arguments he is offering on evolution, because he doesn't need my defense. He is doing a great job on his own. It's not my place to defend science, I am called to defend the faith and its historical claims. I rather defend the Bible rather than science and what we think it has determined, science is not my standard of truth, metaphysics, reality, and thus worldview. The Bible is the standard.

So let me ask you, Reynold, do you believe in good and evil? If so, what is your standard? How do you account for what is good and what is evil?

emram said...

reynold,

I would like to know something about your standard for right and wrong. It seems that you suffer from the same syndrome that all other non-biblical worldviews suffer from, inconsistency.

You want to slap God in the face while you use His standards of meaning, morals, ethics, and metaphysics. What does evolution teach you about good and evil? Last time I checked, evolution is built upon the survival of the fittest; why then care what happens to poor, weak, and inferior life forms that hold back the process of evolution, why not just get rid of 'useless' people that are prohibiting the process of real evolution from going forward?

This is precisely what the Nazis did, once evolution has been truly accepted, why not drive it forward as effectively as possible for the evolutionary 'good' of all people??

Again, you must presupposed the biblical worldview, its morals, logical absolutes, and standards of metaphysics in order to deny it. Good luck trying to explain to a rationally 'evolved' person why he should care about whether or not there is anything just or injust at all.

What is the purpose of life reynold, why? and according to who?

Reynold said...

emram said...

reynold,

I would like to know something about your standard for right and wrong. It seems that you suffer from the same syndrome that all other non-biblical worldviews suffer from, inconsistency.

LOL. You have got to be kidding! This is from a member of a religion who believes that a "god" who orders the killing of pregnant women and babies is OK, yet still consideres themselves "pro-life"?

Don't talk to me about "inconsistency".

You want to slap God in the face while you use His standards of meaning, morals, ethics, and metaphysics.
First, to imply that I want to slap "God" in the face implies that I think he actually exists...Second, what makes you think that your religion originated all those? Don't you realize that other religions and other philosophies have contributed to our standards of right and wrong? If it was strictly the biblical view, many of the laws in the States would be quite different; for one thing, that "freedom of religion" idea.

What does evolution teach you about good and evil? Last time I checked, evolution is built upon the survival of the fittest;
You should do some reading about that; "survival of the fittest" does not just mean "red by tooth and claw".

Besides, why should evolution teach us anything about "right and wrong"?

Evolution is a scientific theory that explains how we got here. It is not a religion. It's never been meant to explain what to do, and why.

why then care what happens to poor, weak, and inferior life forms that hold back the process of evolution, why not just get rid of 'useless' people that are prohibiting the process of real evolution from going forward?
As I said, evolution only explains what "is", not what we "should" do. Besides, how does one determine who is "inferior"?

You do realize that stuff like "eugenics" had been going on for thousands of years before evolutionary theory came about, right?

Read Dr. West, meet Dr. Tinkle, Creationist eugenicist on the Panda's Thumb website. If you're trying to imply that it's only "evolutionists" who went for that sort of thing of "weeding" out the "inferior", you've got a little bit of reading of the history of your own religion to do first.

Besides, if you'd read any of Darwin's books, you'd have seen that he had great sympathy for how those of different skin color were treated. He once even stated that to try to divide people into different "races" based on skin color was likely futile and useless.

**Interesting note** In his "Origin" book, the first example that Darwin gave of "races" was when he was talking about different "races" of cabbage. He was using the term "races" as we use the word "variety" today.


This is precisely what the Nazis did, once evolution has been truly accepted, why not drive it forward as effectively as possible for the evolutionary 'good' of all people??
You need to learn some history. I dealt with this over at Ray Comfort's blog. Here, I'll just point out that Darwin's books were banned in Germany.

Think about that.

Again, you must presupposed the biblical worldview, its morals, logical absolutes, and standards of metaphysics in order to deny it.
Nonsense. As I said before, our ideas of morality came from many places. From pre-christian greeks, Sumerians, Romans, etc.

Even biologists are starting to delve into how ethics may have developed:
Evolution And Ethics: Human Morality In Biological And Religious Perspective by Philip Clayton

Moral Minds: How Nature Designed Our Universal Sense of Right and Wrong by Marc Hauser

Primates and Philosophers: How Morality Evolved (Princeton Science Library) by Frans de Waal


Good luck trying to explain to a rationally 'evolved' person why he should care about whether or not there is anything just or injust at all.
Easy. If this life is all there is, does that not make it more precious, as opposed to some "test" for some "afterlife"?

What is the purpose of life reynold, why? and according to who?
We make our own. Why? Do you feel that your life is not worth living unless you feel that some "higher power" gives you a purpose?

If so, I feel sorry for you.

Reynold said...

To Trish:
If you'd read Ray's posts about evolution, you'd see that posters like Stephen J are continually taking his arguments apart. I'd urge you to read over his stuff again.

Ray doesn't have a clue about evolution...he tosses out strawman after strawman and he keeps getting called out on it. If you actually wanted to learn about evolution I'd suggest that you read the 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution FAQ at the Talk Origins Archive, and their Index of Creationist Claims. You may also want to read their God and Evolution FAQ if you think that evolution by itself shoots down the idea of any "God".


As for morals, I said in my reply to emram that morals have a complicated development process, from many sources. Even biologists are starting to figure out a biological factor for it. Things like empathy are not exclusive to the human race. Other primates show that too.

Fish with Trish said...

Reynold, sorry you've been trying to post comments with links and #3above states that: Any comments that include website links will not be published. (Since we are unable to fully explore every web site, the inclusion of a url may mean we choose not to publish your otherwise wonderful comment. If your web site is important to you, we suggest you include it in your personal profile).

Sorry about that...please feel free to comment again but not with the link.

Reynold said...

The link was to a post in Ray Comfort's blog. Same as the one that you allowed in my previous post. Maybe I should have said that it was to Comfort's blog.

Oh well: This is the name of the post from Comfort's blog: If you are an atheist, please watch this..., look at the third comment, the one by Steven J.

Kay D. said...

Here's a question for the atheists out there, especially those following the Freedom From Religion Foundation's most recent godless agenda. If God does not exist as these atheists say they believe, then why are they so threatened by Him that they must do all they can to remove Him from all aspects of society? Their own actions give them away. We don't see them taking such actions against Buddha, or against Allah. But of course, Buddha is dead, and Allah doesn't exist. If they truly believed that God did not exist and that what we believe is a myth, then Christianity should not bother them in the least. Instead, their actions show that they believe there is a God, and that they hate Him. Today I will be celebrating Lincoln's birthday.

Logic Lad said...

Kay D.
Athiest do not hate god, by definition they cannot. You will also find that most of us are not threatend by god, again see above, however we do feel threatened by the real world power and influence of the various institutions that claim to act on his (mythical) behalf. I don't want my rights, privallages and responsibilities dictated by people who claim to hear voices and can only back up there postions with threats of eternal damnation. I think a more important question in why do you guys, so sure and solid in your faith, have so little regard for those who choose to walk a different path. I do not try to make you beleive something you think is false, why do you not grant me the same level of respect?

Logic Lad said...

forgot to turn on email tracing

Reynold said...

KayD
The reason we "fight" against christians is because in the west, it's those of your religion that have the political power to impose your views on others.

Ex)the constant attempts to bring "intelligent design/creationism" into public schools, religous churches not being taxed, thus shifting the burden on to the rest of us, uselss "Faith Based"programs that everyone's tax dollars pay for; really...a simple reading of history should explain it all.

In countries where Muslims rule, guess who the atheists contend with there?

By your reasoning then, the reason that christians, and muslims, etc. are always fighting to convert people and fighting against atheism like Ray Comfort does is because deep down, they know that atheism is the true choice, and they just don't want to face it.

Kay D. said...

logic lad and reynold,

I agree that there have been many hypocrites down through the ages and even today, who have done many evil deeds in the name of God. They are false Christians, because those who name the name of Christ must "depart from iniquity." Those pretenders who are still alive must repent or they too will perish.

If these beliefs were simply our own and not from God, it wouldn't matter to me what you believe. How would that affect me? But instead I and others are compelled by our horror of what will happen to those who reject the Gospel.

Suppose you were headed for a cliff and I stood there, kept quiet, and failed to warn you of your danger? Similarly, if we truly believe there is a Hell, a place of eternal torment (and we do), we would be wickedly negligent not to warn you and others to "flee from the wrath to come." Then you could rightly accuse us of having "little regard" for those who do not believe as we do.

If you are right, then someday we will all lie down in the dust, and that will be the end of it for all of us. But...if we are right, you have much more to fear. And you should, if, as Jesus said, "their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched."

Javier said...

Illogic Cad
Atheist do not hate god, by definition they cannot.

How does it follow that the non-existence of God (according to you) means its impossible to hate him? Can one hate the character in a book? Or perhaps a cartoon character? They don't 'exist' but they certailny can be hated.
however we do feel threatened by the real world power and influence of the various institutions that claim to act on his (mythical) behalf.

Like what? What institutions? If anything, as a Reformed Christian I find mystical pentecostals, and hyper dispensationalists as threatening as you do, but why are you assuming that we are those Christians? Why not attempt to familiarize yourself with the version of Christianity that is taught according to our creeds and confessions? Why are you assuming the worst of our traditions such as fundamentalism and mysticism and then attacking us on that basis without allowing us to explain our positions? You are generalizing the contemporary american church doctrine, with historic Christian faith. I'd expect the 'logic lad' to be more logical and not commit the fallacy of equivocation.

I don't want my rights, privallages and responsibilities dictated by people who claim to hear voices and can only back up there postions with threats of eternal damnation.

What rights and privileges?

Logic Lad said...

Kay D

Could you please define a christian for me? i was under the impression that it was someone who held that there was one God and his only son died on a cross. anyone who claims to believe this is a christian, if they arn't how do you know who is and who isn't?

If I where headed for a cliff i should be able to see this clidd, or at least some evidence for it, this is where your analogy falls down. I do not question your good intentions when trying to convince people to repent. However look at it from the other side.

You are driving your car and you passenger starts telling you there is an invisible block in the road. you can only get round it by going to way they tell you to go. You can see no block, fair enough it is invisable, however there is no evidence of the block as well, no crashed cars, people leaning on it in wonder etc. Why would you believe them?

Pascal's wager is as invalid today as when he spoke it. I don't think betting my 70 years against the complete lack of evidence of the devine is a good bet.

Javier

I would like to engage you in conversation however we seem to have started badly. I seem to have upset you in some way and you have responded with insults. I will respond to the questions in your post but please bare in mind it is neither adult nor clever to insult someone you don't know simply because you can hide behind a computer screen. If i offended you in some manner please bring it up and we can discuss it.

Hate is a very powerful emotion, one that i am not sure i have ever felt. I simply don;t think my life has ever been bad enough for me to hate anyone, and no that dosn't make me a peace and love hippy, lots of things make me angry, but the deep visceral feeling of wrongness that hate implies is just not something i have come across. I find it hard to beleive that anyone could hate something that they knew/believed was not real.

I am from the UK and as such have little knowledge of the various sects and branches of christianity in the USA. I am making no assumptions about you as a person, and you say yourself that there are branches of christanity that you don't agree with, some of these branches have massive power and influence through there funds and the people they have under their sway. What you personally believe in is your own concern, and if you beleive in live and let live then we can atleast agree on that. however most religions do not, most believe in displaying a large amount of control over the whole populace not just the section that actually agrees with them.

I am not a christian basher, please don't think of me as such. i don't beleive in any god it is simply chrisitanity that i have more knowledge and experience of, hence i can debate more freely with a christian than with a muslim. also i am not attacking anyone, if my last mail suggested i was then i apologies, i had to write it in a hurry as i was about to get on a plane.

As to the fallacy of equivication, i was responding to a general question about athiests with a general response about religion. general questions get general answers.

Religious pressure groups are constantly trying to get the law changed to come in line with there belief system. be it gay marriage, abortion, birth control or assisted suicide. These are all things that should not be regulated based on the interpretations of ancient texts and unsubstantiated beliefs. these things affect everyone not just the people who believe. Even getting away from these very touchy subjects, it was not all that long ago that it was illegal to trade on a sunday in uk based purely on the christian belief that it is a holy day, how is that right?

Javier said...

Hate is a very powerful emotion, one that i am not sure i have ever felt. I simply don;t think my life has ever been bad enough for me to hate anyone, and no that dosn't make me a peace and love hippy, lots of things make me angry, but the deep visceral feeling of wrongness that hate implies is just not something i have come across. I find it hard to beleive that anyone could hate something that they knew/believed was not real.

Firstly, as I pointed out its not necessary for one to exist for it/him/her to be hated. One can hate the character in a movie, or in a book and still hate them.

Secondly, the acts committed against God demonstrate the hatred man has. Its not just atheist who hate God, its theists of all stripes. You don't wear an 'I hate God' t-shirt you hide it beneath your word, thought and deed.
I am from the UK and as such have little knowledge of the various sects and branches of christianity in the USA.

And this is a problem. This is a problem because I'd expect one to familiarize themselves with the claims of a certain religion. Being from the UK, I'm not surprised that you are not taught in the faith of your fathers, and your country. Its imploded into secular absurdity. You shouldn't be arguing with Christians but Muslims.

I am making no assumptions about you as a person, and you say yourself that there are branches of christanity that you don't agree with, some of these branches have massive power and influence through there funds and the people they have under their sway.

Nonetheless, a 'Christian' influence in the UK is nonexistent. Apart from the disaster of the Anglican Church, you have nothing to worry about my friend. The Anglicans will be decimated by the Muslims, and your country will be United Kingdomstan.

What you personally believe in is your own concern, and if you beleive in live and let live then we can atleast agree on that.

No, this is incorrect. Since when is it so offensive for one to share the truth with someone else? Would you find it offensive if someone corrected you in a mathematics test? Perhaps in biology? With all due respect my Briton friend, simply proclaiming God's commands against a nation of rebels (including all peoples of the world) shouldn't be as offensive as its made out to be. To be sure, the Gospel is offensive, every man is prideful and loves his sin. ButoOf course the 'offense' simply indicates that men today are spineless, and need some thicker skin.

however most religions do not, most believe in displaying a large amount of control over the whole populace not just the section that actually agrees with them.


You are demonstrating what you know about Christianity. And generalizing it again, what exactly is it about my religion that likes to 'display a large amount of control over the whole populace' ? As if we're in some bondage or something.

i don't beleive in any god it is simply chrisitanity that i have more knowledge and experience of, hence i can debate more freely with a christian than with a muslim.

Christians are the least of your worries, and if its Christians you're interested in debating then find the six or so evangelicals that live in you area.

also i am not attacking anyone, if my last mail suggested i was then i apologies, i had to write it in a hurry as i was about to get on a plane.

No need to apologize, my offense meter is not that of a typical Westerner. Considering that you're engaged in debate, I'd assume you'd know that intellectual assault is necessary when entering into the debate. There is nothing 'wrong' with 'attacking' another position.

As to the fallacy of equivication, i was responding to a general question about athiests with a general response about religion. general questions get general answers.

Thats fine, but remember that general knowledge cannot expand into particular knowledge of x sect. At this point then you've admitted that you cannot engage Christians any further than this. Since Evangelicals in the UK are the least of your worries, I'd point you to some Islamic fascist blog so that you can attack the Islamic invasion.

Religious pressure groups are constantly trying to get the law changed to come in line with there belief system. be it gay marriage, abortion, birth control or assisted suicide. These are all things that should not be regulated based on the interpretations of ancient texts and unsubstantiated beliefs.

I'm sorry, since when do religious values need to be excluded from legislation? Perhaps then you'd like us all to succumb to the secular values of yourself and your group? How then is it right that your irreligious group (which is just another word for 'religious group' if one takes 'religious' to imply a set of beliefs) can legislate their irreligious beliefs? Perhaps you'd like us all to then agree with your dogmas (I say that facetiously) and beliefs? This is inescapable. One would assume that you'd like us all to believe as you do, but we don't and you have to deal with this. And even if you say 'live and let live' is that also not simply a belief that you'd like us all to adhere to?

these things affect everyone not just the people who believe.

As would your beliefs.

Even getting away from these very touchy subjects, it was not all that long ago that it was illegal to trade on a sunday in uk based purely on the christian belief that it is a holy day, how is that right?

I don't know how that is 'right' because I don't hold to that position. If you'd like a particular answer, you'd have to ask those who hold to the particular position. But you only have a general knowledge of Christianity so that you'd not know the difference b/w those who do hold to that position and those who do not.

Reynold said...

Nonetheless, a 'Christian' influence in the UK is nonexistent. Apart from the disaster of the Anglican Church, you have nothing to worry about my friend. The Anglicans will be decimated by the Muslims, and your country will be United Kingdomstan.
Javier, that was stupid, even for you.

Logic Lad said...

Javier, you raise an number of interesting points

I think we have to agree to disagree about all athiests hating god, you clearly believe that they do, and you won't except my word as an athiest that i don't, you have repeatedly accused me of equivocation and yet here you insist on a very sweeping generalisation, either you will have to offer specific examples or we will have to drop this topic.

Javier said 'This is a problem because I'd expect one to familiarize themselves with the claims of a certain religion'

while I am no theologian i have had 8 years of the mandatory relegious education from the state, I am the son of a Methodist lay preacher and before deciding it was not for me, have recieved a number of good results in scripture test and attneded church weekly until i was 18. More recently i have read and discussed ,on many blogs, various bits of faith so i think that i have some knowledge of the subject.


Javier said 'Being from the UK, I'm not surprised that you are not taught in the faith of your fathers, and your country. Its imploded into secular absurdity'

As i mentioned above i was raised in the faith of my mother, however i was given the freedom to make my own mind up concerning religion. Could you give some examples of the UK imploding in to 'secular absurdity'?

Javier said 'You shouldn't be arguing with Christians but Muslims.'

Why? christian influence in the UK is much stronger than that of Islam. While we don't have quite as many wignuts as the US when it comes to people trying to shove christianity down out throats we still have laws based purely on scripture, institutions that campaign against good scrience based on faith and church leaders are still called on to provide 'guidance; on some aspects of gouvernment. Plus, as i said i can have a more menaingful discussion with a christian as i have some understanding of where they are coming from.

Javier said 'The Anglicans will be decimated by the Muslims, and your country will be United Kingdomstan.'

Sorry, going to have to go with Reynold on this one, i am afraid you don't know what you are talking about. While i accept that muslims have a growing influence in UK culture, one that i am not all that happy with, the power of the christian church is still there for all to see, the shere amount of money they control means that they are here to stay for a while.

Javier said 'Since when is it so offensive for one to share the truth with someone else',

It isn't, however it depends how you define truth, you have a belief in the existance of god, fine, i don't. what is truth to you is false to me. Now you seem to find me coming here and telling my 'truth' offensive, i mean you did start you last reply with an insult. Correcting me on facts is fine, telling me 2+2 equals 4 not 5 and while i will feel an idiot for making such a basic mistake i will not be upset with you because you can demonstrate you correctness.

Would you find it offensive is a hindu proclaimed his good word to you, and insisted that your christian beliefs are inherently wrong?

Your beliefs are your own, even trying to convince me of them, unless i have asked to stop, is fine however in this case you cannot prove you are right all you can do is try to convince me that you are, i am afriad part of my atheism is due to a need to have some evidence before i give credence to something, to miss quote Jerry McGuire 'show me the evidence'

Javier said what exactly is it about my religion that likes to 'display a large amount of control over the whole populace' ? As if we're in some bondage or something.
'

You want some examples of christian attempts to force scripture on people who don't agree with them. OK, Proposition 8, nearly all pro life supporters, attempts to get creationism into schools. is that enough for you?

Javier said' No need to apologize, my offense meter is not that of a typical Westerner. Considering that you're engaged in debate, I'd assume you'd know that intellectual assault is necessary when entering into the debate. There is nothing 'wrong' with 'attacking' another position.'

Ok so but just so where clear personal attacks, ie refering to me as 'illogical cad' are not attacks against my position they are insults.

Resulting to name calling only weakens your postion, it suggests that you cannot support your arguements in any other way, Do not take this a me saying you are wrong, but you have to understand that insulting some one so they will no longer talk to you is not the same as convincing them you are correct.

Javier said 'Thats fine, but remember that general knowledge cannot expand into particular knowledge of x sect. At this point then you've admitted that you cannot engage Christians any further than this.'

Sorry going to have to disagree with you here, firstly general questions get general answers, if you expect differently then you are starting with an unlevel playing field hence you are not after discussion but simply ranting. secondly i know more then enough about christianity to know that the majority of it's sects share more then they seperate. If you beleive in good, beleive Jesus was his son and derive your moral code from the bible then i doesnt really matter to, an outsider, whether you are baptist, methodist, or any thing else. I am not here to debate how many angels can dance on a pin head, i am here to talk about the effects of religion and faith on society, and i was specifically addressing the question of why do atheists hate god. You are in real danger of playing the 'No true Scotsman' card and as fallacy it is a bit of a whopper.

Javier said 'I'm sorry, since when do religious values need to be excluded from legislation?'

At the point we don't all agree on them. If you can back up a religous position on something with evidence other than 'God said so in this book i have' then it is valid to be included in the debate, other than that why should my life be gouverned by your beliefs?

Javier said 'One would assume that you'd like us all to believe as you do, but we don't and you have to deal with this.'

To put it bluntly i don't give a fig what you believe, in that what goes on in your own head is your concern. I deffinatly don't want everyone to agree with me all the time, that would mean i could not have these kinds of conversations and I am sure i am not right all the time. I am of the opinion legislation should be based on provable facts, and where there are no facts we should not instanatly assume that one of many ancient books give us the answer.

Javier said'But you only have a general knowledge of Christianity so that you'd not know the difference b/w those who do hold to that position and those who do not'

the point i have been trying to make is that it is not specificaly christians, or any particular sect, i have an issue with, it is religion in general, the ardent belief in an, unproveable, god. I have a working knoweldge of the book that (nearly) all christians hold to be the word of god, to varying levels of inerrantness. If your sect means that the deffinition of a chrisitian i gave early is wrong then correct me, but i think you will find that if you disagree with some or all of the statements i made you will have difficulty defending your position as a christian. more importantly, it dosn't matter, because we could be having this conversation if you where a Hindu or a Muslim because we are not talking about the specifics of any religion we are talking about the effects of faith.

Kay D. said...

logic lad,

I would be happy to explain what exactly is a Christian. There is a big misconception that a Christian is anyone who believes in God and believes that Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross. But the Bible says, "We know that we have come to know Him if we obey his commands." (I John 1:3) So you can tell that someone is a true Christian if he obeys God's commands. And most people know when a person is acting right or not. However, a person does not become a Christian by obeying God's commands. Obedience to God is the evidence that one has already become a Christian.

How does one become a Christian? We must realize that we have broken God's Moral Law, the Ten Commandments. Some of them are: Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength, do not take the Lord's name in vain, do not lie, do not steal, do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not covet. Each person must realize that he has broken God's Laws and that "God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36) In Roman 1:18 it says, "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness" We also must not think to ourselves that we have done pretty well, and that we aren't really all that bad. James 2:10 warns, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." So God's standard of goodness is moral perfection.

We have all broken God's Laws, and God, being the just Judge, cannot just look the other way. He must punish sin. He says, "I will by no means clear the guilty." Because we are guilty, we each deserve punishment in Hell. And God will judge us on Judgement Day based on whether or not we have kept his commands.

But God is rich in mercy. He made a way for us to be saved from His Own wrath. As you know, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, died on the cross. Jesus was perfect and never sinned; but He went to the cross to take the punishment that you and I deserved. Romans 5:7-8 says, "Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

And three days later Jesus rose from the dead.

So we broke the Law, and He paid our fine. It's just as if you were standing in a courtroom guilty of committing a crime. Then someone you don't know came in and paid your fine for you. In that way, justice is satisfied and God can rescue us from His Own wrath. It also says, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

So what must we do to be saved? We must repent of our sins: that means to confess your sins to God and turn from your sins. Then we must trust in Christ to save us.

A Christian is someone who has repented of their sins and trusted in Christ.

A lot of people think they are Christians, and it is tragic because Jesus said, "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!" But in I John 2:4 it says, "The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him." The lack of obedience in his life is evidence tat he never truly repented and trusted in the Savior. This doesn't mean that he will never, ever sin again, but that he won't want to sin. God will take away his desire to sin, and give him a new desire to obey Him. And He also gives us the power and ability to obey Him. A Christian may sin against his will, but his life is characterized by obedience to God.

In regard to the cliff analogy, I agree that that it breaks down. A better analogy would be to talk about a blind man headed for a cliff. Isn't it possible to be in danger and not know it? And yet, you do have some idea, because we are warning you now.

Regarding the perceived lack of evidence for Christianity, have you ever read Ray Comfort's book, God Doesn't Believe in Atheists? I highly recommend it. In a nutshell, I would say this. Take a look at your shoes. Who made them? You might guess that a shoe maker or manufacturer made them. How do you know? Have you seen the shoe maker or manufacturer? Have you been to the factory to see proof that they actually make shoes? You wouldn't have to, because the existence of a designed pair of shoes is evidence enough for you. What if I told you that I had an amazing pair of shoes that slowly, over the course of many years, evolved into a beautiful leather pair with intricate design. I would likely be insulting your intelligence. In the same way, the creation, which is far more intricate than a simple pair of shoes, is the evidence that there is a Creator. In Romans 1:20-21, it says, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened."

If you really want to know the truth, then please do yourself a favor by investigating this completely with an open mind and an honest heart. There is too much at stake if what I am saying is true. Your soul, your life, is too important. Dr. Charles Stanley once said that if you ask God to reveal Himself to you, He will answer that prayer if you are sincere. That is, if you really want to know the truth, if you honestly want to know if He truly exists. In Jeremiah it says, "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."

I can see Pascal's reasoning, but I would not use that line of reasoning when talking to someone about becoming a Christian. That is not the reason a person should come to Christ. We should come to Christ because we are guilty of breaking His Laws, and we should come to Him in repentance and faith.

Kay D. said...

Javier,

I do appreciate some of the points that you have made in your communication with logic lad; you have thought of some things that I did not know or that I did not remember. However, I feel that I must say something about your words. I think you have made some important points. But I would like to encourage you to do so with kindness--as it says in Ephesians 4:32, "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you." I don't agree with logic lad on points regarding Christianity, but I do have to agree with him that name-calling will not help matters. It only makes you seem like you are not acting like a Christian. And as logic lad indicated, insulting people will only serve to alienate them, not convince them that you are right.

I am also unsure about your attitude towards other Christians. You mentioned earlier that you are threatened by hyperdispensationalists and mystical Pentecostals (I am not sure exactly what your words were, I am going from memory.) I am reformed like you are, and yet I have Christian friends who are Charismatic, and others who you might classify as "hyperdispensationists". I love these people dearly. Perhaps you are even postmillinial as I am. But I do not consider these issues to be important enough to break fellowship over; not unless the people in question are teaching something heretical, such as denying the deity of Christ. As II John verse 5 says, "I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another."

I hope that you will not be upset by these comments, but that you will take it in the spirit that it is given. We are encouraged in the Scriptures to admonish one another, and I have felt compelled to call your attention to these things. I have to add that I am doing this reluctantly as I do not wish to insult you at all, but to encourage you toward godliness.

Logic Lad said...

Kay D

Sorry this is getting a bit out of kilter due to seeing posts out of order, I am going back to your definition of a christian.

Kay D said
'I would be happy to explain what exactly is a Christian. There is a big misconception that a Christian is anyone who believes in God and believes that Jesus, the Son of God, died on the cross. But the Bible says, "We know that we have come to know Him if we obey his commands." (I John 1:3) So you can tell that someone is a true Christian if he obeys God's commands. And most people know when a person is acting right or not. However, a person does not become a Christian by obeying God's commands. Obedience to God is the evidence that one has already become a Christian.'

This raises a couple of questions

1) Do you follow all of God's laws, because if you are using the old and new testments there are quite a few devine instructions which are certainly morally questionable and almost certainly illegal, in todays society.

2) how do i tell a true christian from a faker, all those Catholics, Quakers and Anglicans all insist that they are real christians to.

Kay d said 'We must realize that we have broken God's Moral Law, the Ten Commandments'

The 10 commandments is an intersting point, and one of the first stumbling blocks i had with religion. they seem to consider a whole host of crimes of an equal level of seriousness, surely you can see an ethical and moral issue with trying to say that bad mouthing your parents or wishing for better things are as bad as murder?

Also to cover your next point of Gods mercy, so the guy who sets the arbitrary rules can also opt to not punish you for them if you grovel enough, that dosn't sound like a very generous offer to me, sounds more like the actions of a jealous king. continuing on with the mercy thing, what about all those who have never had the opportunity to here the good word, or those too young to understand it, do they get sent straight to hell?

Kay d said 'So we broke the Law, and He paid our fine. It's just as if you were standing in a courtroom guilty of committing a crime. Then someone you don't know came in and paid your fine for you. In that way, justice is satisfied and God can rescue us from His Own wrath. It also says, "He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."'

How is this justice? this sounds more like petty vengence. before the advent of proper legal process it was often consider better that someone one, even an innocent, be punished for a crime than the state be seen as powerless to enforce it's rule. Some one else taking the punishment is not justice. justice is when those that are gulity of commiting a crime are recieve a punishment that is relevant to the severity of the crime commited. which brings us onto another question about God's justice, there is no middle ground, it's all heaven or all hell. surely you cannot think that it is morally justifiable to condemn someone to an eternity of punishment, regardless of what crime they have committed, particuarly when it is the same punishment for the undisciplined childs as it is for the mass murderer.

Kay D said 'This doesn't mean that he will never, ever sin again, but that he won't want to sin. God will take away his desire to sin, and give him a new desire to obey Him. And He also gives us the power and ability to obey Him. A Christian may sin against his will, but his life is characterized by obedience to God.'

Does this mean that you have never ever looked at something and wanted it? you have never once thought a bad thing about your parents? since you reformed I mean? I always thought the fight against the wish to sin was the one that made you holy, if your desire to sin is removed then you no longer have free will, hence rather defeating the point in a choice.

Kay d said 'In regard to the cliff analogy, I agree that that it breaks down. A better analogy would be to talk about a blind man headed for a cliff. Isn't it possible to be in danger and not know it? And yet, you do have some idea, because we are warning you now.'

Even a blind man can be lead to the edge of the cliff and be able to feel that there is no ground. he can then choose to trust that there actually is a cliff. but he gets some evidence to back up that claims, he does not have to just to trust someone elses statements, to really make the analogy accurate the blind man should know the area well and be fairly sure there is no cliff.

Kay d said 'Regarding the perceived lack of evidence for Christianity, have you ever read Ray Comfort's book, God Doesn't Believe in Atheists?'

I am not about to enter into a debate on evoloution, as you have siad you don't need to defend Comfort, i don't need to defend Darwin. others can do so far better than me. Concerning you use of the shoe i would point out that a shoe is not alive and does no reproduce so suggesting that how it is made is the same as to how we where is a little inaccurate.

Kay d said 'If you really want to know the truth, then please do yourself a favor by investigating this completely with an open mind and an honest heart'

As a firm believer in the scientific method my mind is about as open as it can be, i do however require evidence and proof. My stand point is that there is insufficent evidence to back up the extraodinary claim of a devine being, creator of all the universer, let alone one that watches our every move and knows out inmost thoughts. A further point. even if some could proove that there is a god, that is still not proof that we should worship him. in his own book he condones, infact insists on morally corrupt actions.

I would also like to add my thanks for your coments to Javier. debate like this is fun and educating, even if neither of us change our minds. it is delightful to have a converstaion on this delicate topic that manages to stay out of the school yard, perhaps i have just had some bad luck in the past.

Javier said...

KayD,
I hope that you will not be upset by these comments, but that you will take it in the spirit that it is given. We are encouraged in the Scriptures to admonish one another, and I have felt compelled to call your attention to these things. I have to add that I am doing this reluctantly as I do not wish to insult you at all, but to encourage you toward godliness.

Amen. Thank you for the exhortation. Although I believe godliness doesn't preclude rough language, or harsh rebuke.

I love having a Reformed sister on this blog! :)

Kay D. said...

logic lad,

I will attempt to answer some of your questions. In regard to Old Testament and New Testatment laws--The book of Hebrews explains that Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice for our sins. Therefore, we no longer need to follow laws requiring animal sacrifices, which were only a covering for sin anyway, and not atonement for sin. The book of Acts records the account of the early days of the church, during which arose a question of whether or not the new Gentile Christians should be required to be circumcised according to the Law of Moses. The apostles got together to discuss this, and they finally responded, saying that it seemed good to them and to the Holy Spirit not to burden the new Christians with anything more than a few rules to live by. The New Testament outlines the principles we are to live by and it is my opinion that any laws not mentioned after the death and resurrection of Christ are simply no longer required. For example, "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur." Revelation 21:8 Obviously, these laws are still in effect.

Regarding false Christians. You can tell who is false in obvious cases. For example, if a person has been committing adultery for an ongoing period of time, you can safely conclude that he or she is not a Christian. Because, "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." I John 3:9

Many times, on the other hand, you don't see any overt evidence of willful sin. We certainly can't make these distinctions, but only God knows each person's heart. Perhaps that's why Scripture exhorts Christians to "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?" II Corinthians 13:5 Christians are instructed to examine themselves, not necessarily each other.

Lots of people may consider themselves to be Christians, but it is Scripture that defines what a Christian is. If my life is not in line with what Scripture says a Christian should be, I need to repent and be sure I am right with God. Many of the tests of a Christian are outlined in I John. Another way is to look at the list of the works of the flesh and the fruit of the Spirit in the book of Galatians. "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." Galatians 5:19-23 It may be helpful for a Christian to take a look at those two lists and ask himself which list bests characterizes himself.

The Ten Commandments. Although they are listed and may appear to you to be counted as the same in severity, there are actually different levels of sin, and the Bible says that God will judge each person according to what he has done. People who are very wicked, such as Nero or Hitler, will certainly receive a much greater punishment than others whose sins were less severe. "Will not the judge of all the earth do right?" It may appear to some that God is not just, but it is our limited understanding as a result of our finite minds that we do not understand His ways. God has given you life, a job, food, shelter, your eyes, your ears, the ability to speak, walk, even to think and debate as we are doing now. God sends rain to the just and to the unjust. To then turn around and accuse Him of wrongdoing is something I would be afraid to do. Very afraid. That is like a criminal, convicted of serious crimes, who points an accusing finger at the judge. He is in no position or right to try to be the judge's judge. An earthly judge who just lets people go when he feels so inclined would be a bad judge. God, Who invented justice, is far more just than any earthly judge, and He cannot just let us go. That's why Jesus had to die.

Those too young to understand--I have reasons from Scripture to believe that they go to heaven.

Those with no opportunity to hear have still violated God's Laws. If you are concerned about them, you could help them by repenting and trusting in the Savior so you can bring the Gospel to them. Also, they know a lot more than you give them credit for. I repeat the verses I quoted earlier: "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Roman 1:18-20

But you should be concerned right now about your own state.

Yes, I have, of course, sinned since becoming a Christian. You may not understand this, but, though I am sometimes tempted and give in to sin, I hate my sin, and I don't want to stay in it. That is one big difference between a true and false Christian. A false Christian will typically love his sin, just as any other nonChristian would. I do have free will, and must constantly choose obedience to God.

You said that you are not exactly qualified to discuss evolution. I am not either. But I must touch on that subject because creation is proof of a Creator. You said that you must see proof before you will believe something. And yet, to date, no one has come up with any solid evidence for the theory of evolution. If evidence is important to you, you should demand it from the evolutionists, not just the creationists. If you don't apply this standard to evolution, then you are accepting that theory on blind faith. It is a scientific fact that the chance for even the simplest protein to form by chance is essentially zero. How much more the entire complex creation. If you really want to know the truth, I challenge you to look for proof for evolution, as well as evidence that disproves creation.

But even if all things were explained and proven to you, would you believe then? Many would not, because the real issue is that they love their sin. They don't want to believe there is a God because if they acknowledge that, then they know they would be accountable to Him, and they don't want that. They want to continue living the way they wish without being accountable to God. I think that their love for sin, and not these other issues, is often the real reason for unbelief.

Kay D. said...

Javier,

Thanks for your understanding.

Logic Lad said...

Kay D,

Kay D said 'The apostles got together to discuss this, and they finally responded, saying that it seemed good to them and to the Holy Spirit not to burden the new Christians with anything more than a few rules to live by'

Does this mean that a bunch of men got together and made a descion on what is demanded by God and what is not? fine they can claim that the holy spirit moved them to come to this conclusion but there is no evidence they did, after all i could say that my arguments here are devinely guided, dosn't mean that they are. Not to mention the fact that all those early christians where breaking one of the commandments, it is hardly honoring your mother and father to tell them that they are going to hell.


Kay D said '"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur."'

Again a long list of very different crimes all being given the say immoral punishment. but we will come back to this later.


Kay d said '"No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God."

As i mentioned in my last post, this kind of invalidates your free will, if you have a part of your desire restricted you are no longer free.


Kay d said 'The Ten Commandments. Although they are listed and may appear to you to be counted as the same in severity, there are actually different levels of sin, and the Bible says that God will judge each person according to what he has done. People who are very wicked, such as Nero or Hitler, will certainly receive a much greater punishment than others whose sins were less severe.'

My point was that there appears to be only one punishment, you go to hell for ever, you get for doing anything that God is displeased with. So what are these lesser punishments? and while we are on the subject of punishment and sinning, what happens if you sin in heaven?

Kay D said 'God has given you life, a job, food, shelter, your eyes, your ears, the ability to speak, walk, even to think and debate as we are doing now'

This is where we seriuously disagree, my parents and various natural processes gave me life, my hard work at school and since gave me my job, the natural world has provided me with food, some kind builder made my house, my eyes are a result of millions of years of evoloution ( and frankly i wear glasees so if they where desgined and made it was a pretty shoddy job), again my ears are the product of millions of years of evoloution, in fact all the rest of your list is down to evoloution to better allow me to move in and control my enviroment.


Kay d said 'That is like a criminal, convicted of serious crimes, who points an accusing finger at the judge'

I am not saying i am innocent, certainly in your eyes I have committed a large number of things that make me a sinner however that does not stop me from pointing out the flaws and immorallity of other people (or deities). Do we assume that becuase some one has commited a crime they are incapable of ever telling the truth or of knowing right from wrong. More to the point just because someone has the power to sit in judgement does not mean thay are perfect. there have been plenty of corrupt judges. If God supports, indeed activly condones immoral acts ( even if by proxy through his representiatives on earth) then he is immoral.


Kay D said 'That's why Jesus had to die.'

And here we have about the worst thing i can think of, punishing to the point of death your own child to aswage your anger for the actions of others. Even if it is a one time deal it is still a human sacrifice to an angry god, and we tend to look down on cultures that did that.


Kay D said 'Those with no opportunity to hear have still violated God's Laws'

And you don't think this is badly and inherently wrong? SO you would be perfectly happy for a stranger to walk up to you in the street, tell you you had broken a cardinal law in a country you had never heard of and sentence you to life in jail then? and even this is not as bad as what you are suggesting.


Kay D said 'But you should be concerned right now about your own state.'

I am quite happy with my state at the moment.

Kay D said 'And yet, to date, no one has come up with any solid evidence for the theory of evolution'

This is just plain wrong, we have found intermediary fossils, evloution has been observed in the lab in bacteria. Frankly the theory of evloution has not been disproved in over 150 years. the fact you choose not to accept the evidence does not mean it is not there.I have read articles and books from both side of the Evo/ID(creationism) argument and every time i come down on the side of Evo. There are still some things we don't understand about it but we have still not found any evidence it is false. As i said i will not defend evoloution, but please read some of the very good books that are out there on the subject. I know Dawkins has a bad reputaion because of 'The God Delusion' but has written some excellent, easy to understand books, on Evolution.

Kay D said 'as well as evidence that disproves creation'

Define your version of creationism and we can discuss that. I am not trying to be flippant but are you an IDer, a young earther......

Kay d said'But even if all things were explained and proven to you, would you believe then?'

Yes. that is the point of the scientific method, if you could present evidence then it would not be a question of faith or belief it would be a question of fact. However give my misgivings about the morality of the God of the bible, i would still not worship him.

Blamster said...

Reynold,

How fascinating, all those words... what a waste. Doesn't it frustrate you that you cannot supply your own consistent worldview?

If you have a problem with the Christian worldview, then supply your own. It does no one any good if all you do is point out things about other people's worldviews.

If you do not have your own standards for epistemology, ethics, and meaning, then rid us of your ignorance. That is not an insult, but a true assessment of your position.

Supply us with a worldview that does not borrow from ours. You cite Dawkins; do you adhere to the same atheistic worldview that he does? Do you believe that life has been "seeded" here by other evolved life forms? These are the types of things Christians just do not have enough faith to believe.

Your misrepresentations of the God of the Bible and the theology of Scripture are sufficient evidence for your false conclusions about Scripture.

The logical fallacies in your premises are sufficient to dismiss your conclusions as well. Again, it is interesting that, you would point out the fact that science is not designed to teach us metaphysicals e.g. "why" yet, your problem with Christianity is essentially metaphysical, you cannot believe in "A god that would...etc".

But where do you get your sense of right and wrong? Or are you simply saying that we must gather the good out of every system of logic and epistemology to draw our standards? But who decided this was right to do, and how do you justify that all religions contradict one another?

It may help to see what questions your logic and worldview beg. What are the necessary underpinnings for your worldview to make sense? What transcendental truths are you assuming in your thought process and why? Why? I really would like an answer to these questions. If you have no answers, then cease pestering the Biblical worldview with your blindness and unbelief.

Kay D. said...

logic lad,

First, I will answer a couple of your questions:

I can't claim to know what exactly the lesser punishments are except that they are all in Hell. There must be degrees of punishment in Hell.

There will be no sin in Heaven. In other words, those in Heaven will be like Him, transformed and perfect.

You have called God evil, and you have called evil the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. You have pointed an accusing finger at God for providing the only way for you to be saved from Hell. These are extremely serious crimes against God. I must warn you in the words of Jesus Christ: "But unless you repent, you too will all perish." Luke 13:5

In regard to the things you have spoken against God, I will refer you to these words of warning from the book of Jude.

"In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, 'The Lord rebuke you!' Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals--these are the very things that destroy them.

"Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion.

"These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm--shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted--twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

"Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: 'See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.' These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage." Jude verses 8-16

And a warning from the book of Hebrews:

"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, 'It is mine to avenge; I will repay,' and again,'The Lord will judge his people.' It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:26-31

Whether you believe in God or not, you will someday stand before God on Judgment Day. You beliefs will not change reality. Jesus warned, "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." Luke 12:4-5

These are sobering words, but I do not like to talk about fear unless there is really something to be feared, a warning of real danger. I warn you to take heed, because you may face God sooner than you think. We never know when we will die; it could be today.

Logic Lad said...

Kay D,

Hell is, please correct me if i am wrong, an eternal place of suffering and punishment. The time is the real punishment here not the suffering. regardless of what is being done that fact it will be done for ever with no possibilty of release is the thing that makes the punishnment immoral.

So in heaven you lose your free will, you argueable become something less than you are now. That is not a reward, it is just slavery by another name. Not to mention if God is going to hoike out your free will as soon as he lets you into heaven why bother giving it in the first place, that way there would be no need to damn anyone.

Just to be clear, I have never accused God of being evil, i have said he is immoral, perhaps amoral would be better.

Thank you for taking the time to post those biblical quotes, but please understand i don't believe in God and i don't beleive that the bible is a message from him, hence I appreciate the effort you have made but simply quoting scripture is not going to convinvce me any more than someone quoting Tolkien at me.

A final question, why does religion always seem to fall back on threats and fear to try and make it's points? I appreciate that you think that the way i love will condemn me, but given i don;t beleive in your place of punishment the threat of it is unlikely to have much effect. You may think me arrogantto take such a stance, however i would argue i show no more hubris than the person who insists they know the truth of what happens after we die with no evidence to back it up.

Logic Lad said...

Blamster.

Not wishing to ignite the blue touch paper

How do you define right and wrong?

what fallacies do you feel that Reynold has made?

Please detail the questions begged by by his worldview?

Kay D. said...

logic lad,

logid lad said: I appreciate that you think that the way i love will condemn me, but given i don't believe in your place of punishment the threat of it is unlikely to have much effect.

I was confused by this statement at first. But upon reflection, I began to wonder if you thought that I know more about you than I do. If that was your idea, then you give me credit for more intelligence than I have. I don't know what your sins are, and it is not my business. But God knows. He sees all your deeds done in darkness, and He even knows your thought life.

Why do I quote so much Scripture? I could quote to you Spurgeon or Wesley, and it may or may not have an effect on you. But Scripture is different. "For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

Belief in the validity of Scripture is not required for it to have the effect that God intends for it to have.

Since you have heard the Gospel, you will have less excuse on Judgment Day, unless you repent. I am afraid for you, my friend, and I would not be in your shoes for all the gold in Fort Knox.

Logic Lad said...

Kay D.

I apologies for the truly awful spelling in my last post, the sentence you where confused by was supposed to be 'way I live' not 'way I love'

The text was meant to mean that given i am unbeliever, you think i am damned.

question for you, there are many, many religions out there all claiming to be the one route to salvation, why should christianity by the right one? please try to give me an answer that does no involve quoting scripture, i am afriad that saying you should believe in the bible becuase it say's you should is just circular logic.

as some one once said, if I die and find myself at the pearly gates, and God tells me i am going to hell for failing to believe in him my reply will be 'where was the evidence?'

Besides which you have never actually repsonded to any of my questions as to if God is worthy of worship, given his track record of supporting immoral actions.

Reynold said...

I was going to reply to blamster but it seems logic lad beat me to it.

Kay D. said...

logic lad,

First of all, I want to thank you for your interest in these questions about Christianity. Some people don't want to hear it at all, so I appreciate your listening to what I have had to say. I also must apologize for not telling you why I am not answering most of your questions. I will explain answers to a couple of your last questions, but most of your other questions I will have to leave unanswered. I will tell you why shortly.

Your question as to why Christianity is the truth rather than all these other religions is a valid one. For some people, this may be a true intellectual roadblock to their salvation. I look to biblical prophecy to validate Scripture for these people. In the Bible, there are hundred of prophecies that came to pass just as they had been foretold. Some were foretold hundred of years before they came to pass. Some examples: Isaiah's prophecies about Jesus Christ in Isaiah 53, Jeremiah's prophecies of the destruction of Jerusalem as well as the exile of the Jewish people to Babylon, Daniel's prophecies regarding future (to him) world empires, King David's prophecies throughout the Psalms regarding Jesus Christ. There are hundred of others. If you are interested, you can research this topic to see if what I am saying is true.

All the other religions of the world require that you work your way to heaven somehow. They believe that their own good works will save them. But if they have ever lied, or stolen, or misused God's Name, they are guilty before God, just as we are. Jesus said if you have ever looked with lust at someone, you have committed adultery in your heart. I John says that if you have ever hated someone, you are guilty of murder. God sees what's in your heart, and He would count you guilty of committing the crime. How will all these sins be forgiven? The Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, Hindus, etc. have no provision for the forgiveness of their sins. They each try their own good works, thinking they can save themselves, but they never know when they've done enough good works to make it into heaven. But no matter what religion a person holds to, they cannot be saved unless their sins are forgiven through the blood of Christ, through repentance and faith.

Your other question was in reference to your thoughts that God was somehow immoral and that He supports immoral actions. God has never and will never support immoral actions. God is perfect, just and holy. It is true that men have often done immoral actions in the name of God, but God does not condone them. And sometimes God decides to things that we don't understand. Hell for all eternity may seem harsh to many people, but it is not too great a punishment when the sin is against a holy, righteous and infinite God. He is perfectly just in sending them to Hell for eternity. The reason you think He is unjust is that you don't see your sin as all that bad. And just because you say that His actions are immoral does not make it so. You are not God, that you can decide what is and is not immoral. When you think you can decide these things, you are using His laws to accuse him; they are not even your own standards, but His.

Does all this satisfy your desire for answers or for proof? I doubt it. You see, you showed me where you're at after I responded to your first series of questions, and you came back with arguments. Some people have honest questions because they are really seeking to know the truth. They have open minds and honest hearts. Others, however, are demanding that God provide them with proof that He exists, among many other things. They don't accept the proof that has been given them, including the vast, complex and intricate creation around them, or the many biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled. Anyone with that attitude will find little, if any, further proof. God will not satisfy the proud, unreasonable demands of sinners.

If Christianity seems foolish to you, that's because God intended it to look that way to the proud of heart. As long as men insist on keeping their pride, as long as they refuse to humble themselves, they cannot be saved. "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble." He chooses to hide these things from the proud of heart who think they are wise, and to reveal them to those who humbly put their trust in Him. He says, "This is the one I esteem: he who is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at my word.'" (Isaiah 66:2) And again, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" (Psalm 14:1)

(And yes, I must quote Scripture because it is the Word of God, whether or not you believe it is. And because it is our only reliable source of information on the character, attributes and ways of God.)

I know that if I answer your questions, there will only be more argumentation, and more argumentative questions, and this will go on and on and on. I was willing for a time to answer your questions to impart the truth of the Gospel because I don't want anyone to go to Hell. But you have rejected the Gospel, and now it seems that, if I do as you ask, this dialogue will degenerate into petty argumentation, which I have no time for. Most importantly, I am commanded in Scripture to avoid such quarreling. Your inquiries are obviously not borne out of an honest search for the truth, but out of a desire to argue.

I repeat what I mentioned earlier. Your demands for proof are not the real reason you refuse to believe. More than likely, the truth is that you love your sin, and you don't want to give it up. And you don't want to give up your pride and bow the knee to God. I think these are the real issues behind your unbelief.

Logic Lad said...

Kay D.

Well it looks like this will be my last post on this thread as it seems i will be talking to myself.

It is strange that in your posts i have seen both the most reasonable and uncomprimising christian that i have ever had the pleasure of chatting with. However I think you are very wrong when it comes to the reasons for atheism. I do not choose to not believe becuase religion is some club that has rules I don't like, if that where the case why would i follow any laws, if i secreatly believe and risk eternal damnation just so i can continue to live my sinful lifestyle then why whould i bother following secular laws that they can only lock me up for?

Your god, as portrayed in his own book, is a cruel tyrant who condemens any who don't bow and scrape to him to eternal pain. This is not the act of a kind or even a beneveloent being. I don't expect to change your mind, but I just want you to understand my point of view.

It would seem you think i am arrogant for questioning and yet you seem to think you know my mind better than i do, that is the height of arrogance. I have not once questioned what you thought, i have only asked you to clarify how scripure can lead us to a better moral place. I still firmly hold that everyone should be able to hold whatever beliefs it is acting on those beliefs that must, in order for society to survive, be requlated and restricted.

You clearly get a lot from your faith and I respect you for holding hard to your choosen truths. May it continue to help you get through all the various difficulties of life.

Thankyou for conversation while it has not changed my mind it has been educational.

Kay D. said...

logic lad,

You will not have to talk to yourself. As I stated earlier, I do appreciate your interest in these questions we have been discussing. However, I hope you can understand my position; that, if I will be obedient to God, I cannot engage in quarreling. I realize that you like to debate, and I can see your point of view on that. My time is also very limited with much family responsibilities.

I don't actually believe that you secretly believe. Otherwise, I would not call it unbelief. In my opinion it is more like chosen unbelief, just like I have chosen beliefs. You choose to believe what you believe, and so do I. I realize that this may not make sense, but I base my thoughts on something I quoted earlier. I will have to quote it again to make my point. "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." Romans 1:18-23

I guess I don't like to be thought of as arrogant any more than you do. I try not to think more highly of myself than I ought to think. But I want you to understand that I am just believing what the Scriptures have to say on the subject, not making my own judgement of you, as though I thought I could read your mind.

I also don't think I can change your mind with intellectual arguments. Salvation and the change of heart that accompanies it is a work of God. No one can just decide on their own to be saved, and no one can save themselves. The Bible says, "No one can come to the Father unless the Father draws him." I know that this opens up a whole host of other questions, because many people would think, "Then why does God blame anyone for unbelief?" If you are interested in the answer to that question (see, I beat you to that question!), look up Romans chapter 9. If you don't have a Bible, I am certain that you realize that you can look it up online.

I should also mention that I don't have all the answers, and I don't understand everything about God, and why He does what He does, the way He does it. If there is a God, that true God could not be understood by our finite minds. God wants us to come to Him humbly without having to know all things first. If we have to have proof, then where is the faith? It says, "The just shall live by faith." (Romans 1:17) If we aren't willing to come to God through the door of faith, then we can't come to Him at all.

I am OK with having a dialogue with you or anyone else, and I am open to further communication over this blog. But as I mentioned earlier, it's the quarreling I must avoid.

I wish you all the best.