Monday, February 4, 2008

Interesting Thread!

Amontoya writes, "Father Jim is exactly right. The Bible should not be the final authority on doctrinal issues, because it never claims that authority for itself. That authority was given to the Church, which is, "the pillar and foundation of the truth," 1 Timothy 3:15."

Amontoya, there are several problems with this issue that can only be solved by fabricating a doctrine of the papacy. Once you renounce Scripture as the final authority, you are left to attempt to construct an ecclesiology which supplements that authority. The only way this can be done is by violating Scripture itself. Thus, in order to sustain the position that the church possesses the final authority on doctrinal issues, one must suppress the authority "upon" which the church is built (i.e. the Word of God given through the apostles and prophets).

The catholic position decides instead to pit Scripture against Scripture, rather than to accept the testimony of Scripture concerning authority. Secondly, every attempt has been made to make light of the catholic or orthodox traditions which contradict not only Scripture but themselves. Thus, imploding because of the faulty ecclesiastical systems upon which they are built (e.g. ecumenical councils, papacy, and psuedopigraphal writings such as the apocrypha, and the statements of Vatican I, II).

Our only hope is an authority outside ourselves, Sola Scriptura, not to be mistaken with Solo Scriptura.

2nd Timothy 3:16-17
• "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness;
• that the man of God may be thoroughly Furnished unto all good works."

Also, please take the time to visit this link where you can find a ton of articles on Sola Scriptura. It has been very helpful to me in my research on why I believe as I do. Thank you for reading this!


NYC said...

Wow, a zesty debate has ensued (ok, you know I've been listening to Todd way too much because now I'm saying zesty).

As you stated, the danger of standing on the authority of a church, not Scripture, as the final authority has devastating consequences whose foundation is laced with error.

I'll be sure to check out that link when I get the chance. Thank you for posting it :)

Fish with Trish said...

Sorry Speakingoffaith we deleted your comment feel free to post it again but here is what you said,

"No body is arguing over what the bible says but what the bible means" The problem with the sola scriptura argument is that the early church never believed it! Someone has to interpret the Bible and before you had the bible you had tradition that summed up the Christian faith. You also, throughout history, had tradition interpreting the Scripture, not the other way around. Do a history lesson and you will see! Jarslov Pelikan says 'the only alternative to tradition is bad tradition' and I would agree. No body is arguing that the Scripture is to have centrality to the Christian faith but to pretend that it can be it's own interpreter, apart from any sort of tradition, is simply nonsense. I'm sure we don't agree here though."

Here are my thoughts:

Since we are not arguing over what the Bible "says", then here’s the bottom line, "Do you think that you are a good person?" "Do you think that you have kept the 10 Commandments?"

Here is a quick test to see how you do: Have you loved God above all else? That's the requirement of the First Commandment. Or have you broken the Second by making a god in your mind that you're comfortable with, a god to suit yourself—something the Bible calls "idolatry"? Have you ever used God's name in vain? Have you always honored your parents implicitly, and kept the Sabbath holy? Have you hated someone? The Bible says, "whoever hates his brother is a murderer." The Seventh is "You shall not commit adultery," but Jesus said, "Whoever looks upon a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart" (the Seventh Commandment includes sex before marriage). Have you ever looked with lust or had sex outside of marriage? Have you ever stolen or lied? On Judgment Day, will you be found to be innocent or guilty? Heaven or Hell? The Bible warns that all liars, thieves, fornicators, and adulterers will end up in Hell.

But God Himself made a way for you to be forgiven. Jesus suffered and died on the cross to satisfy the Moral Law — "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Then He rose from the dead, defeating death. That means that God can forgive you and grant you the gift of everlasting life. This is why you need a Savior--“All liars will have their part in the lake of fire” (Rev 21:8). Adulterers, thieves and fornicators (those who have sex out of marriage) will not inherit the Kingdom of God (Eph 5:5). The wrath of God came upon the Savior so that it wouldn’t have to come upon you. If you refuse God’s offer of mercy, He will give you justice, and that is a fearful thing.

I looked into the mirror of the 10 Commandments many years ago and I saw myself in true light. The Law of God had done its accusing work. I was utterly guilty and my eyes were opened! I knew that I was a wretch and that I needed a Savior. That's when I repented and clung to Christ. I have never let go, by God's grace. If you never have, please repent and trust in Jesus today--before death seizes on you. Humble yourself and seek the truth. Thank you for reading this and for taking the time to comment.

Fish with Trish said...

Speaking of faith, here are my husband's (Emilio Ramos) thoughts:

"Do a history lesson"?

Maybe the person needing the history lesson is you. If you are of the Catholic or Orthodox tradition, then you will know that the unanimous testimony of the early church viewed the Scripture as the "rule of faith" and thus the final authority. After all, who can judge tradition but Scripture? To elevate tradition above Scripture is to strip the church clean of what these traditions pretend to possess, i.e. authority. When popes, counsels, and traditions contradict themselves, as they have often done through out the centuries, Scripture alone judges them for being orthodox or unorthodox. Scripture is "God-breathed" not traditions, popes, or counsels. I am happy to announce that we are no longer in a transitionary period, whatever tradition the churches had prior to Scripture that was other than Scripture is no longer needed since we now have a "more sure word of prophecy" in Scripture. If one desires to live in the traditions of this transitionary period in which traditions themselves have never been canonized or agreed upon as infallible or universally authoritative, you are free to do so. I will opt for sola Scriptura! For us, Scripture interprets Scripture (we do not superimpose tradition into the exegetical process) not a nebulous standard like man made tradition. Finally, when we speak about sola Scriptura we are not saying tradition is to be completely excluded from the interpretive task e.g. solo Scriptura but that as it pertains to "final" authority Scripture alone is inspired by God to do this. Any tradition of the early church simply reinforced bible doctrine.

Particularly of interest to you, if you are a Roman Catholic, is what Pelikan also said concerning the inconsistencies of the Roman Catholic Church:

"Because of their doctrine of the church, Roman Catholic theologians... were compelled to interpret church history on the basis of a preconcieved system and to explain away the many stubborn and embarrassing facts that could not be accommodated to that system"
(Pelikan, Obedient Rebels, p32).

speakingoffaith said...

No one is saying that the Church is perfect or had it all perfect but to say that the church’s traditions simply supported what was biblical doctrine creates a real problem for the Protestant church post reformation. In fact, most of the reformers held to ‘traditions’ that you would not say could be supported by the biblical text, such as the ever-virginity of Mary or the veneration of Mary, the view of the just name a few. Speaking of Pelikan, he is probably the authority on church history in our era and he himself became Orthodox in his later years of life. So I guess Pelikan himself would not hold to your idea of sola scriptura. Considering Trish’s response, thanks. I understand that I’m not a ‘good person’ in myself but am thankful that Christ has made a way to repentance for me.